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lilly voc and backing up what your believe

 
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2552
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:28 pm    Post subject: lilly voc and backing up what your believe Reply with quote

i have been following the conversations on a few threads with fascination.. to my own way of thinking one can talk theory, or refer to some acknowledged master on astrology, but for me it would be most interesting if one was to be told the answer to these questions not just before the fact, which is what horary astrology attempts to do, but after the fact as well so as to offer some tangible proof that the theories are sound..

i never see this happen though, or rarely.. in some of the books i have read on horary they follow thru and tell you the end result..

i think it would be most interesting if the questions asked in a future sense had some sort of closure with an answer somewhere after the fact.

on another slightly different note, i am always nervous when i see individuals try so hard to follow the viewpoint of another person, whether an astrological or religous leader, to the point that they are inclined to quickly dismiss other viewpoints that don't as easily fit in with the views of their esteemed leader..something about the cultural or time context that is missing in all of it for me and context is obviously very important. perhaps this has to do with my own tendency to work things out for myself.. i don't discount the benefit from having a teacher or following a particular system, but at some point i think one must figure out things for themselves or the same spirit that guides us as guided these esteemed teachers before us.

i am for more examples of proof after the fact..
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Meredith



Joined: 05 Jul 2012
Posts: 64

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:29 am    Post subject: Re: lilly voc and backing up what your believe Reply with quote

james_m wrote:


i think it would be most interesting if the questions asked in a future sense had some sort of closure with an answer somewhere after the fact.


Hi James,

I've only read one book on horary - John Frawley's and this does list examples of horaries and outcomes.

james_m wrote:
on another slightly different note, i am always nervous when i see individuals try so hard to follow the viewpoint of another person, whether an astrological or religous leader, to the point that they are inclined to quickly dismiss other viewpoints that don't as easily fit in with the views of their esteemed leader..something about the cultural or time context that is missing in all of it for me and context is obviously very important. perhaps this has to do with my own tendency to work things out for myself..


I think it's human nature... I think when one is first learning, it can be tempting to adhere to one school of thought/ astrologer as there is so much out there... I think you know you've 'arrived' at least at a certain position, when you start to question things and come up with your own understanding.

Coincidentally re voc - I just came across this article on JF's website...
http://www.real-astrology.com/doc/Void%20of%20Course.pdf
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2552
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

meredith,

thanks for the little comment on 'hardly' from jf.

do you think it is human nature to want to believe or think there is only 'one right way' to do something? is fanaticism a natural expression of human nature? how does one describe when someone loses perspective to the point of only adhering to one line of thought and thinking anyone who doesn't align with that same thinking is wrong?

i suppose being an astrological zealot is human nature up to a point. i think some of it comes from not being able to think independently, or to entertain the idea that there might be more then one way to do something or arrive at a position.
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Meredith



Joined: 05 Jul 2012
Posts: 64

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
how does one describe when someone loses perspective to the point of only adhering to one line of thought and thinking anyone who doesn't align with that same thinking is wrong?


Lately I've been thinking that there seem to be only a few absolutes in astrology (in my opinion at present). I suppose people *want* absolutes in life, they want certainty? I don't know. But on a public forum it's a bit different, state one's case, state one's sources when reaching conclusions, leave it at that? You've hit a sore spot with this - I've noticed in the UK that many groups will shout down people they don't agree with instead of giving reasoned argument and offering uninterrupted time for the other person to do so also... there's a lot of bullying going on, a lack of manners, civility, even compassion... and certainly, over-emotionalism.
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Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've moved this thread from the nativities section to the horary section since it seems to be questioning the definition of VOC by Lilly and within horary technique. That appears to be the case, although I'm a bit confused by this thread and don't understand the purpose of some of the comments made in it (or recognise others as being applicable to the astrological community I know).

James, I understand that your comments are following on from this much lengthier thread - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7399 - but are you asking for a clarification of what VOC meant as used by Lilly? Or are you making a statement that you don't think it should matter what Lilly did? Your remarks seem to leave the implication that those who learn by studying his works treat him as a sort of religious leader and unthinkingly apply his techniques because of a lack of mental facility (not the best way to open up a civil discussion). If you go to the horary section - http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary.html - there are many links to horary charts that have been explained, with follow-throughs which tell you the end result. There's also about three dozen example charts in Lilly's Christian Astrology, where he outlines the querent's problem, explains the judgement that he made, and shows how the situation was resolved. I have always been impressed by Lilly's work because 1) he is very open and informative in his explanations, 2) his astrological logic stands up to scrutiny, 3) his use of technique is impressive and his judgement shows great sensitivity, and 4) he is respectful but not slavish to his sources and does not expect that from his readers.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2552
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi meredith and deb,

meredith,

that is how i see it too. i question the idea of absolutes in astrology. i continue to see astrology as more art with a strong subjective form of expression from those practicing astrology.

deb

thanks for expressing your thoughts and acknowledging some confusion on the nature of this thread. i think it would be best to put this in the philosophy section as my intent and curiosity around this topic is primarily philosophical. it has to do with belief systems and the idea of people being so attached to a particular belief that it prevents the idea of a plurality of beliefs coexisting.

i realize there are those who admire lilly. is lilly supposed to be seen as the final word or gospel on horary? is it possible that one can reach a conclusion on their own or thru other authors without having to fall back on lilly as the final word at all times? the parallel with religious belief and the idea of someone thinking there is only 'one true way' while any other way is obviously not the correct way seems to be demonstrated based on my observations of forum conversations .. i think this type of approach as applied to astrology is really unhealthy and unfriendly. what do you think?
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varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 320
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 5:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2552
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi varuna,

thanks for pointing out what appear as inconsistencies in my comments. reading it again -"i continue to see astrology as more art with a strong subjective form of expression.."
i haven't ruled out any objectivity with astrology, but am emphasizing more of the subjective part for a few reasons. i think this is why some of the different viewpoints pop up too.

for me the objective part is based on observing something specific that i believe connects to astrology directly and that is in line with basic astrological ideas connected to planets, signs, houses and etc. etc. however, i do note that other astrologers in defining an event or outcome go about defining it in their own way that can sometimes be quite different then my own. i don't know that we can get all astrologers to agree on that much, but i like to think we have more in common then not.
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 764
Location: Rawalpindi/Islamabad (Pakistan)

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James-m wrote:

Quote:
on another slightly different note, i am always nervous when i see individuals try so hard to follow the viewpoint of another person, whether an astrological or religous leader, to the point that they are inclined to quickly dismiss other viewpoints that don't as easily fit in with the views of their esteemed leader..


Human beings are by nature a species which lives in a group. To survive as a group all of them have to conform to accepted safety guidelines (religion, morals diet etc).

These safety guidelines are conceived by the Philosophers/Thinkers,
(Science, Religion, Ground breaking discovery, Exploration, SOP's etc)

adopted by the leaders for leading and
(father at home, Boss at office, Religious authorities, Governing
authorities etc)


followed by general populace.

(Adopting Fashion, Listening to News, Reading Books, following accepted tradition, praying etc)


Its very difficult to challenge the existing norms and think a better norm depending solely on reason (no books).

Lets say

1. 0.1% Lead
2. 0.1% Think &
3. 99.8% follow

You think differently. Like me, you are a loner Laughing
_________________
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2552
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi horatio,

i sent you a few pm's but it doesn't look like you got them yet.

i am just now reading yet another book by the 2 authors dr. bruce perry and maia szalavitz. the first one i read was called 'the boy raised as a dog'. this 2nd one is called 'born to love' why empathy is essential and endangered.)

both these books are very insightful and worth reading, although not directly astrological in nature, they are very interesting and bring me to your comments.

in one of the chapters on a young girl who finds herself searching to be a part of a peer group, she ends up being involved in a crime. the book discusses studies that have been done over the years to show how when people are put in situations where others are responding a certain way, they often feel a greater sense of pressure to conform with those who they see as setting the agenda or being the ones to pattern after.. this is especially a learning curve for teenage girls, but interestingly in studies of adults conducted by researchers into this, the pattern of this shows up with adults as well.. adults will sooner lie then tell the truth if it means they end up standing out and appearing different.. obviously this is a generalization and i refer any curious readers to chapter 8 titled the chameleon in this book 'born for love' by the above mentioned authors. something to think about when it comes to entertaining the idea of thinking independently. cheers james
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 380
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
i do note that other astrologers in defining an event or outcome go about defining it in their own way that can sometimes be quite different then my own. i don't know that we can get all astrologers to agree on that much, but i like to think we have more in common then not.


Hello James

I know that you have read Geoffrey Cornelius' fascinating book "The Moment of Astrology" where he discusses why it is that attempts to objectively ascertain the validity of astrology have dismally failed.

To paraphrase Cornelius, the problem is that science has nothing to say about subjectivity and no way to measure a subjective quality. The more you try to take the subjectivity, or 'art', out of astrology to make it amenable to scientific measurement, the less astrology works. Tests which leave the subjectivity in astrology seem to return very positive results, but those tests are not statistically rigorous and so not valid. It is frustrating, but there we are.

I would suggest that the detailed route by which an astrologer might navigate a chart to form a judgement is not something that should be of concern to anyone other than him or herself. That is the art of the astrologer. What is important is that (s)he should be able to agree on that judgement with other astrologers, who have looked at the same chart from their own very unique viewpoint.

Best wishes,

Geoffrey
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2552
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi geoffrey,

cornelius's book was indeed fascinating and it did discuss this subjective dynamic which i think of as the 'art' part. i am thinking of how astrologers will get entangled in differences over house systems, or just exactly what void of course means and come to different or slightly different conclusions as a result. all astrologers didn't agree on the outcome for the last usa election for example, but the means they used to arrive at the conclusions may have been solid.. there is something else at work that might transcend the astrology. who goes over a prediction that is made and analyzes what went wrong with it when the prediction isn't correct to figure out what went wrong in the prognosis? hopefully most astrologers do! i don't think one makes accurate predictions right out of astrology school, although i have never went to astrology school, so maybe i am generalizing here in a way that is unfair to those who have.

thanks for your comments!
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