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Will she be homeless and lose her child?

 
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Will she be homeless and lose her child? Reply with quote

Situation: The Querant has been going thru a had time in her marriage and her husband is finally going to get a divorce from her. She is practically jobless and in such a high rent city she doesn't think she can survive economically. She believes her husband and his family are plotting to take the child from her in the divorce court proceedings.

Query #1: Will I end up homeless in the next 6-12 months?

Query #2: Will I be without my child?

Time: 9:51 A.M. 0951 hours

Date: 7 / 7 / 2012

Place: Reno, Nevada, USA 119w49 39n32

If one goes to astro.com, and uses the Liz Greene style of horoscopes, and keeps the size at 75%, and Does Not enlarge the horoscope, but Copys & Paste the web address of the horary chart to the Forum Post, an artist can Send, or Download the map to their screen, and it may make it easier for Forum members to work with. Do Not enlarge or change the data on Astro.com or the horoscope may dissapear I have found. When you are done with the horoscope just hit that 'X' icon that gets rid of the webpage and all is well! The horary chart in question that one may click upon and it magicly appears:

Note: You can't change the data or try to calculate another chart or the new chart will take the horoscope's place.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?;lang=e;gm=a1;nho2=;btyp=2;mth=gr;sday=7;smon=6;syr=2012;hsy=5;zod=;orbp=;rs=2;add=18;node=-Yn;pfday=-YP%201;fix=1;ast=&nhor=1&cid=12efilet9qfgK-u1339089501

Leo is Rising with the Sun at 17Gem20 and in the 11H, the Sun's Accidental Fall, and Venus is combust, overdone, burnt up, which symbolizes her marriage in trouble.

First query: I'm seeing Mars as the lord of her 4H, the first quesited from her query, as Lilly says '...the 4th is castles or Manours..', so her abscence of a home must be the aspects to the lord of the 4th. Mars is lord of the quesited and receiving a Squ from the Sun, which I interpret as a No answer, the querant will not become homeless in 6-12 months.

I had thought possibly that the asc., could be the quesited, but Lilly seems to say that her residence or whether she is homeless or not to be the fourth.

Second Query: Being 'Will she be without her child?' As Sag is on the horary's 5th, with Jupiter at 29tau05, the first aspect is Mars trining Jupiter, yet here comes Luna which is at 1aqu30 and will perfect with Jupiter by a Square before Mars can catch up to that trine. So I'm saying No, she won't lose her child or be without him, but due to Mars applying trine and being overtaken by the Moon I'm seeing some type of negotiations either with her future ex-husband or the authoritys in the future divorce court.

Any comments and counter oppinions are quite welcome as we all hate to see a woman homeless or losing their child.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-reader/content?oid=22904
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 11th House is co-signified by Sun, so it is not an accidental fall, but 12th or 6th (as these are cadent, from latin "cado", meaning "to fall").

1. Indeed, her home is signified by Mars, as ruler of 4th. There is a partile square with Sun, so she will not be homeless in 12 months, but after that time frame her situation might be worse...

2. Unfortunately, she will lose her child. The Moon (as querent's co-significatrix) separates a trine from Jupiter and then Jupiter will change the Sign, meaning the child will be in another place.

I don't think the ex-husband's family is involved. Venus (the Lady of 4th from 7th) is not casting any aspect to MC and she is retrograde. The Moon's first applying aspect will be a trine to Venus, I suppose the querent will be in amiable terms with them in the future.
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzadde said:

Quote:
The 11th House is co-signified by Sun, so it is not an accidental fall, but 12th or 6th (as these are cadent, from latin "cado", meaning "to fall").


You are entirely correct, I meant Accidental Detriment, as the Sun is in the 11th as in:

http://www.astrologycom.com/dignities.html

http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/lesson7/index.html

Quote:
Essential vs. Accidental Dignity
Most astrologers are already familiar with the concept of essential dignity. When you talk of a planet's being in its "fall" or being "exalted," you are talking about that planets essential dignity. When doing natal astrology, modern astrologers often use a planet's dignity as part of a psychological evaluation. Horary astrologers might do the same, but they are far more concerned with a planet's ability to function effectively to bring about a desired outcome. Cladius Dariot expressed this well when he wrote, "the planets do show and utter their force and stength, much more in some certain places in the Zodiac than in others, and therefore are said to be more strong and better fortuned in those places than in others..." In short, essential dignity is determined by a planet's placement in the zodiac.

Accidental dignity, on the other hand, is determined by a planet's placement in the houses, as well as its aspects to other planets and fixed stars. For instance, being angular (in houses 1, 4, 7, or 10) gives a planet greater accidental dignity than being cadent (houses 3, 6, 9, 12). Similarly, conjoining Jupiter is generally better for a planet than conjoining Saturn.


Yes, as this horary has Saturn ruling the 7th, the horary artist, and Rx, the artist is limited, advised to use caution, and in need of other consultants on this matter.

As Mars, lord of the questied, is in the 2nd, and it's Accidental Detriment, and and the Sun is squaring Mars as lord of the 4th, the answer is No she won't be homeless in 6-12 months, but as you say Tzadde, it will most likely, or rather most assurdedly get worse for her in her living arrangements but possibly be with friends prior to the 12 month timeline.

Tzadde says:

Quote:
2. Unfortunately, she will lose her child. The Moon (as querent's co-significatrix) separates a trine from Jupiter and then Jupiter will change the Sign, meaning the child will be in another place.


In other words you aren't buying the that wide aspect of Luna, one degree Aqu, to Zeus at 29 Tau, with the Moon trine Venus, then Sun, then Saturn, as eventually squaring Jupiter, as a No at the last minute type of thing, by wide aspect and in the same sign, if I understood Lilly correctly 'even though Not in moeity the Moon will eventually squ Jupiter before Jupiter leaves that last degree of Tau'. In other words the child because of her mother's finances, will be taken from the mother by the court as the father and his family have an abundance of money and the wife has no means of support.

Or, is there going to be joint custody of the child, maybe Not what the mother wants, but the father will have more of the child's time and responsibility than the mother as will be awarded by the court?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise Men know how little they know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-reader/content?oid=22904
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Houses are not Signs and Signs are not Houses. It was established for a long time, before 20th century astrologers came to mess up the alphabet of Astrology. The Sun is not in accidental detriment, he is actually in accidental dignity, for two reasons:
- 11th House is fortunate and powerful;
- 11th House is co-signified by Sun.
So it is not like Aquarius at all, which is the middle of winter and the Sun's light is diminished, compared to other seasons.

Also, check the table of accidental dignities from the mithras link you have provided in this topic, you'll see the 11th House in the first column and second row down the "Accidental Dignities" title.

Same thing with Mars in second... check the next row in the same table.

2. The aspects depend very much on the planets, their motion and position. As you can see, the Moon is much faster than Jupiter and the trine with him has just passed. Therefore, the trine is separating. Because of that, Jupiter is no longer taken into account for future aspects. Jupiter is in the past, not in the future.

In order to meet Jupiter again, even by square, the Moon have to change her Sign, which means the querent will have to move to another place or simply change her situation.

As you have mentioned, the querent doesn't have a good financial situation, so we have to keep it simple and close to common sense, because moving or changing takes a lot of time and resources... Obviously, this is out of the time range proposed by the querent.

3. I'm not sure about joint custody, but it is possible. The Moon's next aspect is a trine with Venus Rx, who is reluctant. It may seem hard at first, but in the end she will be permitted to visit her child as often as possible.
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- Saint Jerome -
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzadde,

So from studying the table the Sun in gemini in the 11th is in Accidental dignity and worth +4 points by Lilly's table as in the following from the table:

Quote:
In the 7th, 4th and 11th Houses


Tzadde said:

Quote:
The Sun is not in accidental detriment, he is actually in accidental dignity, for two reasons:
- 11th House is fortunate and powerful;
- 11th House is co-signified by Sun.
So it is not like Aquarius at all, which is the middle of winter and the Sun's light is diminished, compared to other seasons.


The more I study Lilly the more I question the why of things because as you know this Sun in the 11th house co-respondence to Aquarius has been throwing me for sometime because of prior Moderne emphasis and confusion. There are a lot of things that throw curves at you in Lilly if one started out studying Modernes then the awakening of Traditionalism!

That Sun in Partill squ to Mars, lord of the 4th, the matter of her home, is saying it's happening fast if Not now is it not?

So she says she may be able to stay in the apartment as it's close to his work and his parents. Maybe this is what she is in fear of that he might after the divorce have her removed and the child may be with the grandparents, parents of the soon to be xhusband, and her in-laws.

Tzadde says:

Quote:
Same thing with Mars in second... check the next row in the same table.


I see what you mean as it says under ACCIDENTAL DIGNITIES:

Quote:
In the 2nd and 5th
And Mars lord of the matter, the 4H is in the horary's 2H.

Tzadde:

Quote:
2. The aspects depend very much on the planets, their motion and position. As you can see, the Moon is much faster than Jupiter and the trine with him has just passed. Therefore, the trine is separating. Because of that, Jupiter is no longer taken into account for future aspects. Jupiter is in the past, not in the future.

In order to meet Jupiter again, even by square, the Moon have to change her Sign, which means the querent will have to move to another place or simply change her situation.


I didn't look in the ephemeris for when the Moon would catch up to Jupiter, but as the Moon moves about 14 degrees per day at present in this chart, and I looked at Jupiter's speed from the astro.com additional tables with planet's speeds and I thought they would eventually connect before Jupiter left Taurus.

I'm going to view the ephemeris right now because just like the horary has stated with a Rx 7th lord and being Saturn this one has been hard on the astrologer!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise know how little they know
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton Soule wrote:
The more I study Lilly the more I question the why of things because as you know this Sun in the 11th house co-respondence to Aquarius has been throwing me for sometime because of prior Moderne emphasis and confusion. There are a lot of things that throw curves at you in Lilly if one started out studying Modernes then the awakening of Traditionalism!

The House-Sign correspondence is available only in medical astrology. In other fields, it is not wise to use it.

Clinton Soule wrote:
That Sun in Partill squ to Mars, lord of the 4th, the matter of her home, is saying it's happening fast if Not now is it not?

I'm not sure if I understood your question. The partill aspect is about present time and, in case of a time frame in the question, it shows a situation that doesn't change in that time frame, but it is possible to be changed after that. At least, this is how I judge.

Clinton Soule wrote:
I didn't look in the ephemeris for when the Moon would catch up to Jupiter, but as the Moon moves about 14 degrees per day at present in this chart, and I looked at Jupiter's speed from the astro.com additional tables with planet's speeds and I thought they would eventually connect before Jupiter left Taurus.

I have looked again at the chart and you were right. The Moon's last aspect in Aquarius is square to Jupiter in Taurus, albeit in the last degree. I believed he would move in another Sign before she catches him up.
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- Saint Jerome -
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
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Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzadde said:

Quote:
I'm not sure if I understood your question. The partill aspect is about present time and, in case of a time frame in the question, it shows a situation that doesn't change in that time frame, but it is possible to be changed after that. At least, this is how I judge.


Tzadde, oh how I think the Ancients, Lilly, and others would have loved to have discussion Forums in their time. For as they set up late at night burning candles and reading how they must have longed to have others with their zeal to compare studies.

For as we read or study Lilly and the Ancients many times we misunderstand methods or concepts.

Lilly says via CA II, page 106:

Quote:
There is also a Partill or Platick aspect: Partill aspect is when two Planets are exactly so many degrees from each other as make a perfect aspect: as if Mercury be in nine degrees of Aries, and Jupiter in nine degrees of Leo, this is a Partill Trine aspect: So Sun in one degree of Taurus, and Moon in one degree of Cancer, make a Partill Sextile, and this is a strong sign or argument for performance of anything, or that the matter is neer hand concluded when the aspect is so partill, and signifies good; and it's as much a sign of present evill when mischief is threatened.


But Deb shows in the following that Lilly wrote in his Merlini Anglici, 1677:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5179&sid=af91d760209e2960fcfd9f2db1844858

About three degrees in Deb's last post on this short discussion. Note, I didn't quote this as I'm Not sure if it's ethical from a poster without their explicit permision.

Tzadde, what I understand from this as Mars in this horary, the lord of the 4H, is in the same degree as the Sun, which is lord of the asc., our querant, is that this is happening fast due to Mars and the Sun being in that tight square. According to this last sentence from Lilly the situation is upon her as if husband wants her out of the house or the courts may order it soon. Do you agree or see something different in the steller script of this tradgic horary?

Tzadde says:

Quote:
I have looked again at the chart and you were right. The Moon's last aspect in Aquarius is square to Jupiter in Taurus, albeit in the last degree. I believed he would move in another Sign before she catches him up.


So this does ease things for her as the Moon will connect and the way I see it is the husband may have custody once the courts decide as the mother has no visible income unless child support or/and alimony are rewarded to her. In other words she won't like the husband having as much rights to the child as he will be rewarded but because of Luna's eventual squ before Jupiter, lord of the child, leaves Taurus the child will Not be totally taken from his mother.

Note: as Saturn is lord of the Artist and the consultantcy how and why this horary is so much hindered!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-reader/content?oid=22904
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Forum I recieved this PM message from an anonymous source of the quesited of the 'will I lose the child?'

This is in reference to the 1 degree Moon in Aqu that will eventually squ the lord of the matter, Jupiter before Jupiter leaves the sign. As Jupiter is ruler of the child and Jupiter is in 29 degrees and will connect with Luna before going into gemini.

Quote:
Great distance means very long time. In the meantime, it might be the querent is very close to lose the child, but in the end her situation might end in a better way than expected. Still, the new situation will be slightly worse than the previous one, before all the debate (is there a lawsuit?), because there is a square with reception (Moon receives Jupiter and she is in his face).

There are two possible situations that I can think of:
1. If the Moon's last aspect rule is true, than it will happen as I predicted.
2. If the rule is not true, than she will not keep her child.

So, please, let me know what happened, ok?


And Yes since there is a coming divorce is that not like a lawsuit with child support and Alimony as a rule?

Clinton Garrett Soule
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stanstar



Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 202
Location: Edinburgh Scotland

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Clinton in your opening post you say that "and in the 11H, the Sun's Accidental Fall"

How do you get that? Lily says in his table of dignities and debilities that a planet in houses 4,7 and 11 are accidentally dignified.

Stan
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stanstar,

Tzadde pretty much covered this in the post that was made.

All of us have been influenced by the Modernes unless one actually lived in a remote part of the world where they never read anything else on astrology but pre-1800 books.

Check out some of the websites astrologers have put forth!

No wonder many on the planet don't believe enough in astrology as like many of the planet's religions, which astrology is a 9th house belief sysyem, there is much current confusion in the art and I don't wish to be guilty of false Traditional approaches.

But many of the so called great Horary artists today actually are Modernes despite 95% of their work coming from Traditional sources.

IE. Even if Lilly would have investigated the Outer planet's influences by testing their reliability in horary, the facts are they just weren't discovered and can not be considered traditional regardless of how prominent the astrologer is.

In principle we can only say when we have tested every horary available by Lilly and the Ancients he studied and draw our own conclusions of would the Outers have made a difference in the horarys they did had they have known about them!

Clinton Garrett Soule
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Outcome of two horarys:

Will the querant become homeless?

As I stated:
Quote:
First query: I'm seeing Mars as the lord of her 4H, the first quesited from her query, as Lilly says '...the 4th is castles or Manours..', so her abscence of a home must be the aspects to the lord of the 4th. Mars is lord of the quesited and receiving a Squ from the Sun, which I interpret as a No answer, the querant will not become homeless in 6-12 months.


And Tzaddle so generously states:
Quote:
1. Indeed, her home is signified by Mars, as ruler of 4th. There is a partile square with Sun, so she will not be homeless in 12 months, but after that time frame her situation might be worse...


Months latter she is currently living in the residence of her new love so first querry is correct.

2. About losing child, Tzadde stated
Quote:
2. Unfortunately, she will lose her child. The Moon (as querent's co-significatrix) separates a trine from Jupiter and then Jupiter will change the Sign, meaning the child will be in another place.


I had said:
Quote:
Second Query: Being 'Will she be without her child?' As Sag is on the horary's 5th, with Jupiter at 29tau05, the first aspect is Mars trining Jupiter, yet here comes Luna which is at 1aqu30 and will perfect with Jupiter by a Square before Mars can catch up to that trine. So I'm saying No, she won't lose her child or be without him, but due to Mars applying trine and being overtaken by the Moon I'm seeing some type of negotiations either with her future ex-husband or the authoritys in the future divorce court.


I misread that aspect as Tzadde stated, but the Moon will eventually square Jupiter in 28 degrees, and that is how when he was a Moderne Anthony Louis would 'say NO it won't happen as squares are No verdicts'. But as I understand since Jupiter is Not recieving any aspects in Orb or Moiety by Al Buruni's orb table as Lilly utilized, unaspected planets are 'no action'.

But Tzadde's verdict is still open because life changes and there are many years in between as the child grows up and til the time the child leaves home as an adult.

So so far the child is given to her by the court, she has Not as yet lost the child.

Hope all will update their query posts as it makes it more worthwhile for the artists participating.

Clinton Garrett Soule
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