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Separating Aspects in Directions
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Anghelos Theon



Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Posts: 55
Location: Italy

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:11 pm    Post subject: Separating Aspects in Directions Reply with quote

Hi everyone!
What about separating aspect in secondary directions?
I noticed a less power or nothing in forecast.
By Tradiction they're as important as applying.
Is it true?

Thanks in advance for replies! Smile

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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe because separating aspects talks of the past and a forecast is done with the future in view?

Not that a separating aspect can not provide context or even be still active if in orb, but logically, only applying aspects will pan out in the fore.
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Anghelos Theon



Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Posts: 55
Location: Italy

Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for reply! Smile
Sure!
Tradition is clear about Past = Separating Aspects buti in Secondary Directions there're separating aspects continuants for many years and - therefore - don't relate to the past.

Except if we consider them as "effects" of a past event which persist in future.

So, they are in the forecast like applying ones.

I.e. Progressed Saturn (13°5' Aq) trine Venus Radix (13°1' Sco).
Start 10 May 2003 - End 15 Feb 2020.
Separating in 2012 until 2020.

AQ
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I would see that as a whole theme unfolding over the course of years, and would try to understand that either through a recurrent matter symbolically relevant, or through an event (or several) that fits this Venus and Saturn, accidentally and essentially. But I find that separating aspects may be less relevant in a forecast because everything is already set in motion, the moment into which everything had came forward has already passed.

Sometimes, I see events happening later that fits a given aspect. I consider this just a natural imperfection of our tools to measure the relevant symbol in the great scale of things. But that is me.
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Anghelos Theon



Joined: 02 Mar 2011
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Location: Italy

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It 's good.
It's coherent.

So, in your experience,
separating aspects are irrelevant for forecast?

AQ
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1773
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

by "secondary directions" you appear to mean "secondary progressions".. one of a few reasons i moved away from sec progs and into solar arc directions is for this reason. a slow moving planet in the sec prog chart hangs around an area forever essentially.. it loses its predictive value as a consequence as far as i am concerned. that said, maybe someone else will come along and contradict me.. it depends on how many planets and various tools you use to get to a prediction as well.. everyone approaches astrology differently. good luck figuring it out.

ps - i like your personal pic!
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Anghelos Theon



Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Posts: 55
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
by "secondary directions" you appear to mean "secondary progressions"


Yes. Smile
It's same.

Quote:
one of a few reasons i moved away from sec progs and into solar arc directions is for this reason. a slow moving planet in the sec prog chart hangs around an area forever essentially


It's true.
However, i found more accurate "secondary" than "primary" for many reasons. One for all, the different point of views about "time" in primary ones (Ptolemy, Naibod, Brahe, Cardan, etc.). In addition, secondary progressions are dynamic and they have more opportunities in interpretation and "chances" of native.

It's natural, forecast is a synthesis of tools. Lilly, in this question, is strongly clear. My interpretation compares three instruments - in according with Christian Astrology - Progressions (Secondary and no Primary), Solar Return and Prophections.

So, in many cases, some separating aspects interdict a forecast if they have same power of app aspects. For this reason, i have this doubt. Maybe, statistics can solve it.

Quote:
good luck figuring it out.
ps - i like your personal pic!


Thanks! Smile

AQ
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi aq,

there is some confusion around the terms 'directions' and 'progressions' and i personally don't view them as the same.

when you progress the chart 1 day per year - that is a secondary progression.. when you direct the whole chart off the daily arc of the sun - that is a secondary direction.. when you direct the chart at a rate of approx 4' per year, that is primary direction... they are all different techniques used for prediction.. historically primary directions seem to have the longest standing history for use by astrologers... thus the term 'secondary' for novel ideas introduced later. secondary progressions - 1 day = 1 year is an idea that placidus came up with due his unhappiness with profections as i understand it.. solar arc directions is a technique i am not as familiar with the history on, but they have gained some popularity in the past 10-15 years and are what i like to use..

as for the different primary keys that one can choose from for primary directions, i hear what you are saying.. i think we are still in an early phase of relearning primary directions given the renewed interest in them and the availability of astro software to examine them without the need for a thorough understanding of the mechanics of them.. i think what is going to happen is those who latch onto anything for purely traditional reasons are going to see the relativity in that approach and might explore other ideas as a consequence.. that is my 2c's on that.. if you have tried primary directions and like secondary progressions and you have yet to try solar arc directions, you might want to check them out to see if they shed more light and relevance on your interest in predictive astrology.. cheers james
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Martin Gansten
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
there is some confusion around the terms 'directions' and 'progressions' and i personally don't view them as the same.

The original (17th-century) name for the technique known today as 'secondary progression' was in fact 'secondary direction'.
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James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 105
Location: Canada

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anghelos Theon wrote:
I.e. Progressed Saturn (13°5' Aq) trine Venus Radix (13°1' Sco).
Start 10 May 2003 - End 15 Feb 2020.
Separating in 2012 until 2020.

AQ


Since Saturn's [direct] approximate daily motion is of 2 minutes, am I wrong in thinking that the planets in your example are already in trine aspect in the radix [natal] chart? If so there isn't much of a secondary direction to talk about, applying or separating.

One other thing, maybe a typo, how can Saturn in Aquarius [13°5' Aq] be in trine aspect to Venus in Scorpio [13°1' Sco]?


james
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James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
The original (17th-century) name for the technique known today as 'secondary progression' was in fact 'secondary direction'.


Thank you Martin, hope I get it right one day Laughing

james
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Anghelos Theon



Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Posts: 55
Location: Italy

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@james_m thanks for explanation. I tried primary directions, in according to Lilly but for many cases they were inaccurate or unclear. There's the possibility of my error in interpretation or in symbols identification - it's clear - but in secondary dont happened it. In Progressed Horoscope by Alan Leo (from where i started), i found a logic and simple method - in substitution of primary ones in the Lilly system (CA III). Other reasons are above.

Martin Gansten wrote:
The original (17th-century) name for the technique known today as 'secondary progression' was in fact 'secondary direction'.


Exactly, thanks. Smile
However, i mean secondary progression, proper.
No doubts.

jerd wrote:
One other thing, maybe a typo, how can Saturn in Aquarius [13°5' Aq] be in trine aspect to Venus in Scorpio [13°1' Sco]? .


Sorry! My error. Rolling Eyes
Square no Trine.
Saturn in Radix is 7°43', without aspects with Venus.

james_m wrote:
Tif you have tried primary directions and like secondary progressions and you have yet to try solar arc directions, you might want to check them out to see if they shed more light and relevance on your interest in predictive astrology.


Oh yeah.
The proof is practice, more and more.
My question, nevertheless, is about nature of separating aspects and their value in forecast, rather that the best method of prediction. Smile

AQ
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Anghelos Theon



Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Posts: 55
Location: Italy

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure!

Saturn Radix 7°43 Aq
Venus Radix 13°1' Sco

Saturn Progr. 13°5' Aq

Below, the chart in exam. Smile




AQ
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James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 105
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I am concerned there is a separating square aspect in this radix involving Venus and Saturn, so I would not emphasize any secondary direction between the two.

In this nocturnal chart, Venus is in sect and in detriment squaring out of sect Saturn in domicile


james
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

martin,

thanks for sharing your deep understanding of the history and use of these terms.. i can only share how i understand the terms at present.. i also note how astrologers are very good at shooting themselves in the foot by making these words progressions and directions interchangeable..

aq

yes - to your original question..i agree with jerd and wouldn't use it.. given the chart you have posted i would be paying attention to the sp sun at natal saturn.. i think this sp saturn to your natal venus is irrelevant..

on the other hand if you are interested in midpoint pictures having the ascendant ruler at the direct venus-saturn midpoint would emphasize bringing these 2 planets together (which you appear to want to bring together here) in some meaningful manner in order to better understand one's potential to connect with others in relationships. this ain't trad technique though...
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