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Differences about reception
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Lakewind



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 103
Location: Buffalo area, New York State

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johannes, I am not at all offended! I am delighted you are participating in this discussion. What did I say that made you feel I was offended?

I am a very direct type of person when offended, and I would have pm'd you and said something off thread. Don't worry about it. Laughing
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Lakewind



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 103
Location: Buffalo area, New York State

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I thought I was getting it until dastars agreed with Johannes about Jupiter Lala Happy

Anyway, here is a chart I just asked. I will interpret it and you guys have at it.
This is the question: Will the judge appoint counsel? I am suing the county I live in in Upstate New York, because I feel they have violated my civil rights under the Americans with Disabilities Act. The County responded to my inital complaint today. I am in very ill health and have multiple disabilites. On Monday I am going to file a request for the federal judge to appoint a lawyer to represent me as I am too ill to represent myself. I got a very negative result.
I am Jupiter in the 6th house, a weak house. Both the County (7th ) and the Judge are Mercury in it's own sign, separating from a conjunction with Venus. I say they are both Mercury because I am using the 10th house as the judge. There are no aspects and no reception, so it looks like I'm screwed. Say what's wrong with my analysis, if you all will be so kind. Thanks

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dastars



Joined: 17 May 2012
Posts: 53

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
If Jupiter is to exalt the Moon, he can do this only, if he is in the Exaltation of the Moon, in Taurus.


That's exactly what JF says, Lakewind. Minus the concepts of receiving and received, which I removed from the quote, but I could tell that for Johannes this was clear.

I agree this chart does not look positive. You mentioned there's no reception. Indeed there's no helpful reception, but there's plenty of negative reception. Three angular planets in Gemini and the Moon's dispositor who happens to be the Moon's next aspect, Mars, is in Virgo. They are all in Jupiter's detriment so they will not be inclined to help Jupiter, unfortunately.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, lakewind Smile

Lakewind wrote:
I still don't get the contrdiction inherent between exaltation and shared rulership, though. It seems rulership by domicile shoulsd also be quite strong in defining reception. Anyway, this is a good discussion and I thank you all.


All authors agree that rulership by domicile is the strongest foundation for reception.

Receiving another planet is not sharing the rulership of the receiving planet with the received one. The reiceived planet does not participate in the rulership of the receiving planet.
There is a descending scale of strength reaching from the dignity of domicile as strongest via exaltation as second strongest to the face as the faintest of the receiving planet's dignities.

Or what do you mean by "shared rulership" exactly?

Johannes
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dastars wrote:
[Fri 12, 11:09 pm]

1.
Frawley uses the term "mutual reception" only if the dignities are major and similar: the planets involved are in each other signs, or exaltation; or sometimes if one is in the other's exaltation and the other is in the first's sign. He also uses the same term when the planets involved are in each other's debilities such as : negative mutual reception.

In practice that simply means what both planets relate to one another in a similar fashion, either negatively or positively -- just like real life. There's no other special meaning to mutual reception in practice -- in this approach.


Dastars, your consideration is not considering Frawley, Textbook, p. 76:

"Mutual Reception[...] This reciprocity does not need to be by the same dignity or debility [...]; it can be by any combination of dignities or debilities. Mars in the sign of Venus: he loves her. [...] Venus in the detriment of Mars: his love is less than unrequited - she actively hates him."

Really: '-- just like real life' is sometimes working in reality.

Johannes
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lakewind wrote:
[Sat Jun 02, 1:43 am]

Anyway, here is a chart I just asked. I will interpret it and you guys have at it.
This is the question: Will the judge appoint counsel? I am suing the county I live in in Upstate New York, because I feel they have violated my civil rights under the Americans with Disabilities Act. The County responded to my inital complaint today. I am in very ill health and have multiple disabilites. On Monday I am going to file a request for the federal judge to appoint a lawyer to represent me as I am too ill to represent myself. I got a very negative result.


You really don't look very well in this question, Lakewind, I agree and regret. Jupiter peregrine in the sixt and the Moon in its fall in the house of your hopes and wishes, seeking the sextile with Mars, Lord of the 12th. But Mars is receiving the Moon in his domicile, triplicity and face at least.

But what the chart affirms is the background of your question: I understand your very ill health to be the condition for getting legal help at all.
Your question:
The lawyer is represented by Saturn, Lord of the second, in his exaltation and triplicity, and Mercury, the judge, in his own house/sign, the significators receiving each other in both their terms (mutual reception) being in good houses (7th and 11th). Mercury will perfect his trine to Saturn on the fourth day of June, Monday, and in my opinion the day which brings about the judicial decison to appoint a lawyer to represent you.

Johannes
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Lakewind



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 103
Location: Buffalo area, New York State

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, guys. I am reconciled to having to rebut the motion by myself. I was a practicing attorney for several years before my disabilities worsened, so I just have to get back into that mode of thinking and do my best. At least, I am spotting a few things in these charts. Bye for now.
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dastars



Joined: 17 May 2012
Posts: 53

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
Dastars, your consideration is not considering Frawley, Textbook, p. 76:"Mutual Reception[...] This reciprocity does not need to be by the same dignity or debility [...]; it can be by any combination of dignities or debilities.


Thanks for pointing that out, Johannes. Indeed, the definition is different. I stand corrected.

johannes susato wrote:
Really: '-- just like real life' is sometimes working in reality.


What do you mean by this last comment?
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dastars wrote:
johannes susato wrote:
Really: '-- just like real life' is sometimes working in reality.


What do you mean by this last comment?


I repeated your statement "just like real life" to affim it, but I wanted to say at the same time, that reality sometimes is working more complicated, more contradictorily than that your former view on reception, you thinking this was Frawley's, could come up to. Frawley's definition of reception is far more in accordance with reality, than you thought it was.

Johannes
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dastars



Joined: 17 May 2012
Posts: 53

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mean Frawley's definition of "mutual reception", not of "reception". His definition of reception I already quoted earlier above, I'm sure you must have seen that it is as it is written on the book.

My error was theoretical since "mutual reception is simply a description of reception from both sides without any further special meaning.

There's no "my former view" of reception. In practice my view of reception or mutual reception has not changed a bit.

If Frawley uses the term for mixed receptions or not (as I had thought) that does not change my practice or my understanding.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course you are right: I meant mutual reception.

I think it is clear enough that "your view on (mutual) reception" is of theoretical nature. And so I did not speak of your practice at all because that was not subject of my explanation which you had asked for. When you had written earlier "Frawley uses the term 'mutual reception' only if the dignities are major and similar", then your view on [or definition of] (mutual) reception had not been that of Frawley. A fact that had been cleared already I thought. But my point was that "Frawley's definition of (mutual) reception is far more in accordance with reality, than you thought it was." And what indeed is hard to believe and to accept from a traditional point of view as to reception and its definition taken as a whole.

I wonder how you could establish a connection between my explanation or my words and your practice which - again - was not in the focus at all.

Johannes
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dastars



Joined: 17 May 2012
Posts: 53

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
And what indeed is hard to believe and to accept from a traditional point of view as to reception and its definition taken as a whole.


I don't know what you mean. What is hard to believe and to accept from a traditional point of view? Can you clarify?

johannes susato wrote:
I wonder how you could establish a connection between my explanation or my words and your practice


Which of your explanations or words? Can you be specific?
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dastars wrote:
johannes susato wrote:
And what indeed is hard to believe and to accept from a traditional point of view as to reception and its definition taken as a whole.

[1] I don't know what you mean. What is hard to believe and to accept from a traditional point of view? Can you clarify?


johannes susato wrote:
I wonder how you could establish a connection between my explanation or my words and your practice

[2] Which of your explanations or words? Can you be specific?


to [1] Frawley's definitions of receptions and mutual receptions and that the given example should be a mutual reception.

to [2] Sorry, but I can't be specific where I have been specific. And probably I can't be more specific.

Johannes
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 764
Location: Rawalpindi/Islamabad (Pakistan)

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Astrobe,

Quote:
Has anyone asked an horary about love ? what worked for you, Frawley's or Lilly's and Bonatti's?


Frawley's treatment of 'Love' & 'Hate' proved correct in my professional practice.

I took active interest in Horary Astrology in January 2007. Lilly was the author which attracted my attention and I read him. I also read few articles written by Frawley and he seemed to sound arrogant and all-knowing and so I was put off.

I started working as a Professional Horary astrologer in January 2008.

In 2008 October on of my client was unable to send me money, so he on my asking sent me books. One of the book was 'The Horary Text Book' by John Frawley. Out of curiosity I applied his rules in professional practice. I ought to confess that his somewhat bizzare method of treating receptions, aspects and answering the questions prove correct in Professional practice. I owe most of my money received from Horary Practice to Mr.John Frawley.
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Zagata



Joined: 15 Dec 2011
Posts: 95
Location: Ruse, Bulgaria

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello everyone,
Thank you for the great topic and discussion first of all.
I want to emphasize something that has just briefly been touched upon while deserving possibly the greatest attention: the nature of horary as well as the practitioner of this Art.
Horary is to a greater extent divination than a set of rules and therefore the perceived reality/system of the practitioner is more important than the objective rules of this Science. The examples are many: judging relationships from the 5th house instead of the 7th, work from the 6th instead of the 10th, health from the 6th instead of the 1st etc etc. Yet those practitioners very often get correct results and predictions. Perhaps the most opposing views are between the Arabs and the Renaissance practitioners regarding health, disease, doctor and cure and the assignment of those houses. And again, these contradictory systems give accurate results. One more system that stands out belongs to a medieval practitioner named Balinus (this is from Hermann’s The Search of the Heart translated by Ben Dykes) who uses only the angles for ALL questions: the Asc for the querrent, the Dsc for the quesited, the MC for the cause of the matter and the IC for the end of the matter.
Therefore it is vital that one settles for a system and uses it and maximizes it so that it gets incorporated into their blood so to speak. This is especially important for beginners who are innocent so to speak and not encumbered by who said what without exemplification. And to give one glaring example of a system: the first horary book that I bought was by Marion March and Joan Mcevers. These modern practitioners first of all not only use the modern planets but use them as rulers of signs! Still, they illustrate with many examples and show accurate predictions. I was amazed to say the least. The point is that it worked for them, regardless of the limitations of their system.
As for Frawley’s use of reception it has to be said that he is not the only one who uses it in this way. Al Qabisi uses it in the same way and I mean: what it boils down to is whether the dispositor of a planet welcomes/loves that planet or whether a planet welcomes/loves its dispositor. All traditional authors that I have read favour the first approach, while Frawley and Al Qabisi the second – that is the disposited planet welcomes/loves its dispositor.
I must say I was first at a loss when I found out that Al Qabisi used reception in this way (Bonatti says so and disagrees respectfully with Al Qabisi).
Yet Frawley’s use of reception and his system for horary as a whole has worked beautifully for my clients. I have tried to add to the system but it is so self-sufficient (for example the system of timing techniques for horary by Umar is the most profound I have encountered and I have tried to incorporate it and even substitute it for Frawley’s yet there is almost no need for it as horary is always contextual).
On the other hand, for natal as well as for elections, I abide by the majority of traditional practitioners, but more importantly by what the language says about reception (this concept goes back to the Hellenistic period and is contained in the ancient Greek) and the way I was taught to use it according to the tradition, namely that it is the dispositor that acts as a host and welcomes the disposited guest, and it has given solid results both in delineation and in prediction of nativities.
As for whether reception requires an aspect I follow the tradition, as in almost everything, but that is for natal. For horary it pretty much does not require an aspect and also there are many examples where afflicted and in aversion planets help one another, to the extent that they can of course, as in Mars in Taurus and Venus in Aries or Mars in Libra and Venus in Scorpio, even though that contradicts the rules. The same goes for using whole signs as the early Arabic practitioners and requiring reception for transfer of light etc.
Lastly, I second Syed Tariq Javed’s experience about John Frawley, who to me is the best horary practitioner I have ever read, although I disagree with Frawley about natal for pretty much everything! (as well as for using Ptolemy’s terms and triplicities).
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