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The Navamsha
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 513
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
since this is a thread on the navamsha and we have veered into talking the 27 mansions and bundy's chart, i thought it might be worth mentioning the place of saturn in bundys navamsha chart at 13 scorpio which is right where mars/south node conjunction is in the natal chart..

Yes, this is one important clue to Bundy's chart. In extreme criminal charts I've often found the combination of Mars-Saturn-Moon and a node as well. But you must be using the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa for navamsa Saturn at 13 degrees.

We can play with the Lahiri and Krishnamurti ayanamsas here:
20 Sco 21 Mars (K); six minutes less for (L)
24 Sco 41 Moon (K) " "
------------------------------------
22 Sco 43 Navamsa Saturn (K)
21 Sco 49 Navamsa Saturn (L)

K navamsa Saturn is at approximately the midpoint between natal Moon and Mars.
L navamsa Saturn is closer to Mars.
F-B 13 degrees is not close to either natal Mars or Moon, and is also behind Ketu.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
My point is that the ninths or navamsas originally belonged to twelve equal signs and not to the lunar mansions.

You may be right, but can we be sure? When the word used is navāṃśa (or navamāṃśa), literally 'ninth-part', then obviously it refers to a division of a zodiacal sign. But when they are called pāda (literally 'foot', but often used in the sense of 'quarter', as most animals are quadrupeds), the reference is to the nakṣatras. The question is which term occurs first. At this point, I don't know.

Quote:
I'm sorry that I cannot take time to list the text references as my office time is limited this month. Martin will no doubt have all the text references and historical dates for the ninths.

Not all of them, no. Wink But to my knowledge they were invented/discovered in India and entered 'western' astrology through Persia in the medieval period. According to Pingree, the Arabic nawbahra is a borrowing from Middle Persian nō bahr, which translates Sanskrit navāṃśa.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 513
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:
Quote:
You may be right, but can we be sure? When the word used is navāṃśa (or navamāṃśa), literally 'ninth-part', then obviously it refers to a division of a zodiacal sign. But when they are called pāda (literally 'foot', but often used in the sense of 'quarter', as most animals are quadrupeds), the reference is to the nakṣatras. The question is which term occurs first. At this point, I don't know.

Thanks, Martin. I stand corrected.

I've been getting a trojan warning today whenever I connect to this site. Wondering if this is happening to anyone else?
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi therese,

i'm not having any issues with trojans on this site, but i am running on ubuntu and maybe that makes it different.

i didn't know the vedic folks were sticklers for tight orbs. maybe that is just you trying to make a case for a particular ayanamsa more.. i was under this general impression it was the sign location that mattered mostly. i also note how you haven't included the south node location so i wonder if this counts for a lot less in your view of vedic, or if it was just a quick response from you on this? i like how we are back to talking navamsha though, lol.

as for the cross over with the navamsha and the nakshatras, i find it really interesting and can't help but want to know more from either you or martin or any thoughts either of you have on this. thanks!
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 513
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi therese,
i didn't know the vedic folks were sticklers for tight orbs.

Mostly they haven't paid attention to orbs, but this is slowly changing. I've watched navamsa crossover degrees for many years, and find them extremely important. It's one of the primary ways to distinguish different charts of people born the same day or otherwise close in time. Navamsa planets have to be close by degree either to another planet or to natal equal cusps. (I haven't experimented with other house cusps.)

Quote:
maybe that is just you trying to make a case for a particular ayanamsa more

This is one of the reasons I decided to use the Krishnamurti ayanamsa, noting orbs between (first) K-B and (second) Lahiri and Krishnamurti.

Quote:
i also note how you haven't included the south node location so i wonder if this counts for a lot less in your view of vedic, or if it was just a quick response from you on this?

It was a quick response, and since I use close orbs, Ketu is a little further away from navamsa Saturn. Then there's the different node calculations: Mean, True and Betz who says that neither the mean nor true node is correct. The nodes are very important in Indian astrology as is shown by each of them having its own dasa period.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks therese,

it is interesting to note how both bundy and brady have a mars-node connection, bundy with mars conjunct south node while brady has the square between mars and nodal axis. if you look at bradys navamsha chart you see a few things - first mars is in the same place in the natal and the navamsha chart (using fb) while the navamahsa moon in scorpio at top of t square involving a mars/saturn opposition runs through the 11/2 and 5 houses and all ties back to brady's mars in the 11th in the natal chart. as i recall the 5th and the 11th have a connection to children in some other schools of astrology. not sure where the vedic folks put a focus on children on.
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
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Location: Stockholm

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
James wrote:
Quote:
since this is a thread on the navamsha and we have veered into talking the 27 mansions and bundy's chart, i thought it might be worth mentioning the place of saturn in bundys navamsha chart at 13 scorpio which is right where mars/south node conjunction is in the natal chart..

Yes, this is one important clue to Bundy's chart. In extreme criminal charts I've often found the combination of Mars-Saturn-Moon and a node as well. But you must be using the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa for navamsa Saturn at 13 degrees.

We can play with the Lahiri and Krishnamurti ayanamsas here:
20 Sco 21 Mars (K); six minutes less for (L)
24 Sco 41 Moon (K) " "
------------------------------------
22 Sco 43 Navamsa Saturn (K)
21 Sco 49 Navamsa Saturn (L)

K navamsa Saturn is at approximately the midpoint between natal Moon and Mars.
L navamsa Saturn is closer to Mars.
F-B 13 degrees is not close to either natal Mars or Moon, and is also behind Ketu.


I would add that if playing with lahiri/krishnamurti and Fagan-Allen Ayanamsha in navamsha, In Ted Bundy's chart there in lahiri or krishnamurti a strong 'Ruchaka yoga' with exalted mars in capricorn in an angle house.

This is an echo from the rashi chart which holds a ruchaka yoga from asc.Moon,sun and arudha lagna. Mars is thus the clearly dominant planet in both rashi and navamsha.
Mars is casting it's powerful aspect on the aries ascendent in navamsha. (gives strong pitta constitution which may be evident in pictures of Bundy with these piercing pitta eyes).
[/img]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy


In Fagan/Bradley ayanamsha Bundy's mars is in 9th house in sagittarius which is not near the power of a ruchaka yoga mars in L/K.

(It's Similar as in Hitlers chart where a very strong mars dominated chart with ruchaka yoga in rashi with also mars in ruchaka yoga in the Navamsha.
Looking at Fagan/Allen navamsha in Hitlers chart gives a libra mars in 12th house as compared to a scorpio mars in first in lahiri/krishanmurti.)

Therese
When it comes to uploading charts on this site I'm a newbie as well.
I just tried the small charts in solar fire that appears on the screen in a small size as a pre look. Then uploading from photobucket.
There are probably better ways to do it I guess.


Last edited by Stefan on Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Stefan. So we are continuing to gather evidence for the L or K ayanamsa over F-B. Of course I tested the ayanamsas long ago, and moved away from Fagan.

When mentioning yogas by their Sanskrit names, it would be good to define the yoga, expalining its meaning for readers here who might not understand the yoga being discussed and how it operates in the chart.

I had overlooked the powerful navamsa Mars, which is also with Pluto, and both fall on the natal 6th equal cusp with L or K. This might perhaps describe a severe mental illness (6th) in Bundy's case. This is an example of an important navamsa to natal overlap of degrees to a cusp.

The Bundy photo is very psychically disturbing. I wouldn't mind if you removed it. (Sorry, although I'm not psychic in the usual way, I'm psychically sensitive.)
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. i feel sick by looking at him.
I took away the picture and inserted a link to the same pic at
wikipedia. lol

Quote:
When mentioning yogas by their Sanskrit names, it would be good to define the yoga, expalining its meaning for readers here who might not understand the yoga being discussed and how it operates in the chart.


Yes, I usually doing that but not here.
Ruchaka yoga is when Mars is located in an angle house from ascendent ( or Moon ) and in it's own sign or exaltation.

Quote:
Thank you, Stefan. So we are continuing to gather evidence for the L or K ayanamsa over F-B. Of course I tested the ayanamsas long ago, and moved away from Fagan.


I tested F-B it briefly in context of some siderealists using solar returns who was stating that it was superor to all ayanamshas.
I did not find it convincing in the divisional charts that these sidereal astrologers don't use.

But if they are happy with it it's ok for me. lol
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:
Quote:
I tested F-B it briefly in context of some siderealists using solar returns who was stating that it was superor to all ayanamshas.
I did not find it convincing in the divisional charts that these sidereal astrologers don't use.

But if they are happy with it it's ok for me. lol

Stefan, good to see that photo gone!

If an astrologer does not use divisional charts, usually it doesn't matter what ayanamsa is used. But it's the divisional charts that are the true test of an ayanamsa. And ultimately divisional charts will be the true test of the most valid (or only valid) sidereal zodiac. We'll need a lot of very precise testing to determine sign boundaries.

Without divisional (varga) charts, there is really no way to "prove" that one ayanamsa is superior to another. And if angularity is the key factor in return charts, then the ayanamsa is almost completely irrelevant. So it is rather silly to claim that one ayanamsa is superior to another as the Fagan school astrologers try to do.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't know much about vedic. thank you therese for asking stefan if he could be so kind as to translate the vedic jargon used to describe such occurances as mars in an angular position for example. i am not opposed to learning the lingo, but it is helpful to have it translated here to follow. going to find a astro dictionary for these vedic terms would be especially handy as it was my same dilemma reading the navamsha book i was previously mentioning.. the jargon is sometimes so thick, it prevents a person going further. it helps me appreciate what astrology must look like to a newbie though.

as for the different zodiac systems, this seems to be a regular disturbance for astrologers of all stripes with some advocating the use of one system over another. it seems like a perpetual dilemma for astrology that will never go away.

since i know very little about vedic i do find it interesting to see the use of midpoints for example. i am quite familiar with the use of midpoints thru my knowledge of cosmobiology and i wonder if the folks using midpoints in vedic also use the 90 or 45 degree wheel? i suppose this would be a real variant on vedic, but it is cool to see folks into vedic also into midpoints.. how about arabic type parts which share much in common with a focus on midpoints?

back to bundys chart.. what does it mean if one has mercury or moon angular in both the natal and navamsha chart? does it matter if either is closer or further away from the angle, but still in the angle?
what about the use of the vertex? anyone in vedic including this in there studies as well? i note how it overlaps in bundys chart or not depending on what system one wants to work with. so many questions and no definitive answers usually, other then all of our speculation on the relevance or not of certain tools in use in astrology..
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James,

I think this site have some material that one may pick up one or two
pieces of information.
http://www.learnastrologyfree.com/tutorialvedic.htm

Here is some about ruchaka yoga and other yogas:

http://books.google.se/books?id=SwnPdKhjEFkC&pg=PA167&dq=mahapurusha+yogas+dreyer&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=G3HST8_bKMzN4QSR9c3LAw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

The author Ronnie Dreyer mentions bundy's ruchaka yoga there.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the links stefan. some others here might enjoy these links too, especially first one too. 2nd one looks like a book put into google book form.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 513
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:30 pm    Post subject: Susan J. Barchard, Astro Twin of Bundy Reply with quote

Susan J. Barchard calls herself an astro-twin of Bundy. She was born about five hours before Bundy on the same day. She wrote an article for American Astrology magazine titled "Ted Bundy and Me." I have the article, but didn't think to write down the date. It was probably in 1989 since there is an ad beside the article for back issues up to February of 1989. Susan writes:

I am the gentlest sort of person who catches insects in the house and sets them free outdoors rather than kill them. I can't bear to see animal, plant or insect harmed. I value all God's creatures right to life...In the years that Ted was committing the murders, I had long brown hair past my waist and parted in the middle--exactly the stereotype of his victims! (p. 40, AA Magazine, 1989?)

Susan's birth data: 24 November, 1946, 5:40 p.m. EST, Berea, Ohio. This would be an interesting study of natal planets and houses and the navamsa chart. Perhaps Stefan can post the chart here, natal and navamsa if possible. Susan's L/K ascendant is 21 Taurus. The navamsa ascendant is Cancer with Mercury.

As one close degree difference between the charts, I can point out that L/K navamsa Pluto-Mars falls on Bundy's 6th house cusp. Susan's Moon falls on her natal 9th cusp. Navamsa Mars-Pluto has no significant close degree cross-over to a natal cusp in her chart.

For those who might want to check Bundy's progressions or solar return, he was electrocuted in Florida on 24 January, 1989, 7:16 a.m. EST, Starke, Florida.
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Stefan



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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok here we go....





And Navamsha:

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