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The Navamsha
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Stockholm

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all

This thread have made me wanting to experiment with the krishnamurti ayanamsha a bit.
I find that in solar fire it is called krishnamurti, but in sri jyoti star my vedic software there are two options "KP new" and "Varamahira KP".

Anyone knowing the difference ?


About the Ian Brady chart,
I find it a bit interesting that Ian Brady have a 'Kala sarpa yoga' in rashi chart. With rahu in scorpio (debilitation according to some) in the 8th house.
In the Navamsha chart is Rahu exact on Ascendent degree as someone mentioned here.

The actual murder of 5 kids according to wiki was in between july 63-oct 65.
Interesting that he was actually then in Rahu period, of the 8th house scorpio rahu.
Intensified Rahu obsessions of the more darker and negative dimensions of scorpio and 8th house it seems.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:
Hi all

This thread have made me wanting to experiment with the krishnamurti ayanamsha a bit.
I find that in solar fire it is called krishnamurti, but in sri jyoti star my vedic software there are two options "KP new" and "Varamahira KP".

Anyone knowing the difference ?

I remember checking "KP new" once, and it was different than the usual KP ayanamsa. But the program wasn't Sri Jyoti Star. "Varamahira KP" is someone's clever invention. It may be the genuine KP or another value. It would be best to calculate a chart in Solar Fire, and then see which of the two choices in Sri Jyoti Star matches the calculations.

Quote:
About the Ian Brady chart,
I find it a bit interesting that Ian Brady [has] a 'Kala sarpa yoga' in rashi chart. With rahu in scorpio (debilitation according to some) in the 8th house.
In the Navamsha chart is Rahu exact on Ascendent degree as someone mentioned here.

I don't see this exact Rahu on the ascendant degree, though it's in the ascendant sign, Libra. I use the mean node, so it must be the "true" node that is exactly on the ascendant? If so, chalk up a point for the so-called true node.
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 46
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info Theresa.

Yes it seems like 'Varamahira KP" give same longitude positions like Solar Fire "Krishnamurti" Ayananmsha"

You are also correct about the node. It IS the true node which I use currently. I used the mean node before but switched some time ago. Not sure which is most correct though.
In the lahiri chart it is an exact conjunction with the node and Ascendent (0.08 orb). I guess the Krishnamurti ayanamsha gives a somewhat similar result.
But then it is of course a matter of the actual birthtime is exact which seldom is the case.


Continue Ian Brady chart:
Rahu period points to Mars in more than one way it seems. Being in scorpio in rashi chart whith dispositor Mars.
Also Mars in the Shatabisha nakshatra which is ruled by rahu so rahu's period activate mars in that respect too.

So this mars so challenged in the Navamsha is in 5th house of children.
If using degrees in navamsha which I do. I notice there that mars is in the nakshatra of Purva Bhadrapada in the navamsha. This navamsha have a strong death symbolism by it's symbol being ' a funeral cot'.
( I have been learned that nakshatras can be used in divisional charts with good results, even thouth some jyotishis may rise their eyebrows.) Leery

Later when he was put in jail in the april of 66 he was in Rahu-Saturn period. Saturn is in 12th house of jails there in rashi. Vimshottari is quite on the spot here Imo. Interesting study.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:
Quote:
If using degrees in navamsha which I do. I notice there that mars is in the nakshatra of Purva Bhadrapada in the navamsha. This navamsha have a strong death symbolism by it's symbol being ' a funeral cot'.
( I have been learned that nakshatras can be used in divisional charts with good results, even thouth some jyotishis may rise their eyebrows.)

This is indeed a novel idea, Stefan, that I had not heard before. I've had trouble finding consistency in birth charts using the standard concepts associated with the zodiac areas known as nakshatras. (Lunar rmansions, and I like Krishnamurti's shorcut term for the mansions, "Stars."

Quote:
Later when he was put in jail in the april of 66 he was in Rahu-Saturn period. Saturn is in 12th house of jails there in rashi. Vimshottari is quite on the spot here Imo. Interesting study.

I don't associate the 12th house with confinement, though I know that's one of the standard concepts associated with the 12th. The 12th has to do with foreign travel and residence and/or travels and exploration by the mind. Indian astrology relates the 12th house to liberation, that is, final freedom. That concept isn't compatible with confinement in a jail cell. The 8th house, however, seems to force conformity in one way or the other. There are so many concepts in astrology that we repeat over and over again without really asking if they are valid.

It seems to me that the navamsa position of Saturn better describes confinement in jail. Saturn is with Pluto and receives the 7th house aspect from Mars, natal 8th lord. Mars is in Aquarius, Saturn's sign.

And Rahu (dasa lord) itself is in natal 8th in a star of Saturn. With the Krishnamurti technique, Saturn in its own star would also bring to the surface any planets in its stars. So we have Rahu in 8th and Pluto in 4th (sign) in Saturn stars. Then this ties together in the navamsa chart with Saturn/Pluto in 7th house aspect to Mars. The 12th house does not come into play. As I read the chart Saturn is in the 12th sign, but not the 12th house.
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Stockholm

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theresa wrote
Quote:
I like Krishnamurti's shorcut term for the mansions, "Stars."


Yes I like it too, and have used it some lately, after I read another astrologer who used that name for the nakshatras. I notice Raman sometimes call them constellation,s which may be taken for the signs and is maybe not so good term for it.

Quote:
I've had trouble finding consistency in birth charts using the standard concepts associated with the zodiac areas known as nakshatras. (Lunar rmansions


Personally I think it adds a significant dimension to the chart and I tend to use it more and more. Amazing symbolism that is associated with the roots of jyotish from the ancient vedas. I feel that it's like having an extra zodiac with rich symbolism that colours the planets that are located in them.

Quote:
I don't associate the 12th house with confinement, though I know that's one of the standard concepts associated with the 12th. The 12th has to do with foreign travel and residence and/or travels and exploration by the mind. Indian astrology relates the 12th house to liberation, that is, final freedom. That concept isn't compatible with confinement in a jail cell.


Yes that's a bit surprising to me as 12th house is listed as imprisonment and confinement in most textbooks of jyotish.
But it's fascinating how different ways of delination can come up with similar results depending on technique favoured.

I feel that according to the principle that a period planet gives the result to some extent of it's nakshatra ruler in Vimshottari dasha, in Ian Brady's case the Rahu period give the results partly of it's nakshatra ruler which is Saturn. And Saturn is placed in the 12th house. Thus rahu give some 12th house results in it's cycle.




The arrest was in Rahu-Jupiter Jupiter is the 12th lord and is in parivartana yoga (mutual reception) with saturn in 12th house.

The actual sentence to lifetime in jail was in Rahu-Saturn period.
Saturn is in 12th house and in the nakshatra of saturn which further points to saturn and 12th house again.


Just by curiousity I checked the chart of another seriekiller: Ted Bundy.
His arrest aug 75 was in period of Venus-Saturn.
In that case saturn is located in the 12th house as well.

At the arrest in aug 75 Transit Saturn was in 1 degree Cancer.
Saturn had just entered his 12th house .


Chart:


I notice that just as in the case of Ian Brady, Ted Bundy's Saturn is placed in a nakshatra ruled by saturn. So saturn in it's subperiod gives here again more 12th house energies in it's cycle.


Quite interesting parallell it seems..



Ian Bradys chart:

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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 518
Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:
Quote:
Just by curiousity I checked the chart of another seriekiller: Ted Bundy.
His arrest aug 75 was in period of Venus-Saturn.
In that case saturn is located in the 12th house as well.

At the arrest in aug 75 Transit Saturn was in 1 degree Cancer.
Saturn had just entered his 12th house
.
Hello Stefin,

First, may I ask the process you used to post the charts? I did find a way to do that myself, but the process was slow and cumbersome, and the charts had to be re-sized as they were too large.

Now Bundy's dates are very interesting because he had muliple arrests and escapes. I was fortunate to find a very detailed article in my files with dates by T. Pat Davis.

In August 75 when Bundy's first arrest happened, you mentioned that Saturn at 1 degree of Cancer had just entered the 12th house. Because I use a system that places the strongest point of a house in the ascendant degree, I would say that places Saturn near the most powerful point of the 12th house since Bundy's ascendant is 2 Leo.

16 August 1975: Arrested on routine traffic violation. Not imprisoned, but under observation. (Venus/Saturn)
Yes, Saturn is in the 12th, and (of interest) in the 8th navamsa house (Scorpio). Venus itself is in a star of Jupiter, 8th house lord.

1 October1975: Arrested on kidnapping charge, imprisoned (Venus/Saturn as above)

June 1977: Escaped from custody, but was re-captured about a week later. (Venus/Mercury)

31 December 1977: Escaped from prison through an attic. Placed on FBI ten most wanted list, but he was free from this date. (Venus/Mercury)

15 February 1978: Final arrest and permanent loss of freedom. (Venus/Mercury)
Both Venus and Mercury are in Vishakha, ruled by Jupiter, 8th lord. Jupiter is also in Vishakha on the I.C.

Taking all these events together, the 8th and 12th both come into play. Saturn should also relate to the 6th and 7th houses in its bhukti since Capricorn and Aquarius are on the cusps. The final arrest, however, points to the 8th house using the Krishnamurti pointer of star lords. (I have Bundy's Mercury, Venus and Jupiter all in the 4th house.) So during this entire period Bundy stayed with the 4th-8th-12th trigon of houses. Venus rules the 10th, however, so he attracted the attention of the world.

Yes, the lunar mansions are also referred to as "constellations," even in Krishnamurti's books. Probably the most precise term is "lunar mansion." "Constellation" is meant to reference the stars in the sky, but these are rarely full constellations when aligned with the 27 equal mansion divisions.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Bundy's chart we have a difference with Jupiter between Lahiri and Krishnamurti. With Lahiri Jupiter remains in Svathi. With Krishnamurti, Jupiter is three minutes into Vishakha.

Stefin, since you are tuned to the lunar mansions, perhaps you can tell us which of these two mansions is more suited to Bundy's Jupiter, 8th house lord. (Also 5th house lord.) It's interesting that Bundy's crime spree did not happen during the very malefic looking Ketu-Mars-Moon Scorpio stellium, even though the Moon is 12th lord. The crimes all happened in Venus dasa, Venus being in an 8th lord mansion and conjoined to 8th lord Jupiter.

What would tropical astrologers say about what appears to be a benefic looking Venus-Jupiter conjunction in Libra?
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi theresa,

in answer to your question - "What would tropical astrologers say about what appears to be a benefic looking Venus-Jupiter conjunction in Libra?"

tropical astrologers would see this ve/ju conjunction in scorpio, not libra!
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi theresa,

in answer to your question - "What would tropical astrologers say about what appears to be a benefic looking Venus-Jupiter conjunction in Libra?"

tropical astrologers would see this ve/ju conjunction in scorpio, not libra!

True. And can we blame Vishakha (location of the stars of the constellation Libra) for tropical Scorpio's bad name?
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese,

on another site someone was observing what they thought were more murderers under the sun sign sag then scorp.. the hype around scorpio doesn't live up to it's reputation as i see it. i am more into the overall pic rather then putting so much on a sign position. things die in the fall in the western hemisphere. it is a natural part of the cycle from a seasonal p.o.v. obviously there are many ways to look at astrology, but my take - scorpio is way over-rated as a sign of bad-ass-ness.. i have scorp rising though - regardless of the zodiac system and have had some time to think about it. my moon is in vishakha too.. this stuff gets a bad rap and i am not convinced of the veracity of it. it seems like astrologers are always looking for a silver bullet and i don't think it can be found in locations of the zodiac signs.
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theresa wrote:
Quote:
In Bundy's chart we have a difference with Jupiter between Lahiri and Krishnamurti. With Lahiri Jupiter remains in Svathi. With Krishnamurti, Jupiter is three minutes into Vishakha.

Stefin, since you are tuned to the lunar mansions, perhaps you can tell us which of these two mansions is more suited to Bundy's Jupiter, 8th house lord. (Also 5th house lord.) It's interesting that Bundy's crime spree did not happen during the very malefic looking Ketu-Mars-Moon Scorpio stellium, even though the Moon is 12th lord. The crimes all happened in Venus dasa, Venus being in an 8th lord mansion and conjoined to 8th lord Jupiter


In reading some characteristics of Vishaka from a website:
http://www.galacticcenter.org/content/view/127/78/

"This is the "Star of Purpose". They are very goal oriented, and donít give up until they achieve success. Ambition, and concentrated power will conquer any obstacles or rivals. They are extremely competitive. With their hash opinions they may force their will and ideas on others. The end result or their bottom line may involve stepping on or either using others to get what they want. They need to be careful not to win the battle, but loose the war, by pushing their agendas too hard. If you have what they want, it will be hard for them to hide their feelings of envy and jealousy. They can become frustrated and angry when they donít get what they want. They are always hopeful of success and their determination will persevere. They are patient, persistent and determined. They experience success in the second half of their life. As the warrior spirit they will get what they want, their best solution is to be the spiritual warrior.

Vishaka is a star that can give strong mental fixations, and is much more driven and potentially aggressive than Swati is. Swati is more gentle and vacillating et.c..
So the answer to your question is that probably the krisnamurti position of Jupiter is more fitting in his case. By first instant thought about this, (without analysis of nakshatra rulers in context of vimshottari periods et.c)..

Bundy's sideral chart holds a massive stellium in scorpio in 4th house of the emotional nature with a debilited moon and mercury. This is to me a quite strong symbolism of a troubled psychology and complicated mind. This stellium is part of an south node eclipse.
Eclipse interrupting quality in his home and family situation.

(Interesting is that bundy was raised by his grandmother which he thought was his mother. His real mother was what he believed was his sister.
He found out when he was grown up. Interesting 4th house dynamics.
Also Ketu is symbol of maternal grandmother (in most sources I think) is placed in 4th).

(I did a chart for a coworker some time ago. She had an eclipse in scorpio in 4th house like Bundy. And was a premature baby spending two month in a artificial separation from her mother --also debilitated moon).

I may comment some more on your thoughts maybe tomorrow.
I am a bit buisy with other things now but wanted to post something at least.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your thoughts and research, Stefan. I am also going to have less computer time for the month of June and into July as this is a month of vacation with family.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could be surprised !!!

"Garga Hora" lists combination of planets in various houses.
Here is the very Indian ! - English translation.

Jupiter and Venus in 3rd:

Quote:
Guru, Sukra in the 3rd Bhava: will not be prosperous, be devoid of sons, be defeated, will have abundant grief and also abundant happiness, be devoid of shame and be not friendly.


Plus:

Sun.Moon,Mercury and Mars in 4th house:

Quote:
Ravi, Chandra, Mangal, Budh in the 4th Bhava: will be bereft of wisdom, be insulted by others, be forsaken by his own people, be unkind and timid.



PD
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

since this is a thread on the navamsha and we have veered into talking the 27 mansions and bundy's chart, i thought it might be worth mentioning the place of saturn in bundys navamsha chart at 13 scorpio which is right where mars/south node conjunction is in the natal chart.. in the navamsha chart, and i don't know if the folks who use the nav chart use the houses to them as well, saturn in scorp is in the 8th as well.. i suppose one can always find a way to explain why someone is the way they are thru astro means, but it is interesting thinking about bundys navamsha chart and how it ties back to a part of his natal that seems to speak directly to the serial killer of such notoriety.

on another note, i do find it interesting how the navamsha and the nakshatras both involve a division of the circle in a similar manner with the number 9 being central to both. not sure if anyone talks about this much but it is another source of fascination for me when trying to comprehend vedic astrology.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
on another note, i do find it interesting how the navamsha and the nakshatras both involve a division of the circle in a similar manner with the number 9 being central to both. not sure if anyone talks about this much but it is another source of fascination for me when trying to comprehend vedic astrology.

Yes, I noted that fact a long time ago. The "ninths" are mentioned in the old western texts, so were a subdivision of the signs from long ago. When India adjusted the 28 nakshatras to the 27 equal lunar manions, the ninths automatically fell into place, four to each mansion.

My point is that the ninths or navamsas originally belonged to twelve equal signs and not to the lunar mansions. This gives us much to think about.

I'm sorry that I cannot take time to list the text references as my office time is limited this month. Martin will no doubt have all the text references and historical dates for the ninths.
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