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The Navamsha
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
therese - i will have to read it again to answer this question immediately above specifically, but i believe it is just transit navamsha to rasi.. it might also include t navamsha to natal navamsha..


James, I'll have to reply to your post a little later, but since you are sure that Patel is referring to transit navamsa to Rasi, why don't we stay with that on the new thread that Melissa started? That will keep it simple.

Is it correct that Patel was referring to conjuctions only? I'd say for effective research, we should check for contacts only within two degrees or so, and then keep a list of the exact positions. And this is very difficult for astrologers to do as our minds seem to be ruled by Neptune which does not like precision!

Therese
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varuna2



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Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Navamsa Jupiter Between Lahiri and Krsihnamurti Reply with quote

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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Varuna, all of the Krishnamurti books are difficult reading. I believe I read somewhere that his sons wrote the books. The English structure is awful.

The best "book" for studying the Krishnamaurti ayanamsa is to compare the navamsa charts for real people such as we've been doing with Ian Brady. These charts can be checked for overall personality and life pattern as well as for sudden catastrophic events, such as the murder of John F. Kennedy.

Of course for anyone interested in using the KP system in their horary or transit work, then the books have to be studied. Also the KP system insists on the Placidus house system for timing. However, one main KP technique is very useful in judging dasa and bhukti periods and doesn't require Placidus houses. I'll write something about that later. I'll also check the books to see if one is a good introduction.

Oh, also we can watch the start of our dasa and bhukti perionds. K will always be earlier by various amounts of time depending on the length of the planetary periods. I have a Mars-Mercury mutual reception in my natal chart. I'm all for hands on investigation--the practical approach.

Therese
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Navamsa Jupiter Between Lahiri and Krsihnamurti Reply with quote

varuna2 wrote:
Which of these books would you recommend for investigating the KP ayanamsha? Or are there other ones as well?

Books by Krishnamurti:
Casting the Horoscope
Fundamental Principles of Astrology
Predictive Stellar Astrology
Marriage, Married Life & Children
Transit (Gocharapala Nirnayam)
Horary Astrology

If I may chip in here, as someone who spent the '90s studying KP quite thoroughly: the books you list are, in that order, the so-called Readers of the Krishnamurti system. However, that designation may give the impression of something much more organized and systematic than is the case. The books are, in fact, rather chaotic: largely a jumble of articles originally published in K. S. Krishnamurti's magazine Astrology and Athrishta (the latter word more properly reads adṛṣṭa, 'the unseen' = fate), some authored by Krishnamurti himself, others by his students.

The contents reflect both the multiple authorship and the development of KP over time. It's a study both fascinating and exasperating, just as the man behind the system seems to have been both a brilliant astrologer and a, shall we say, controversial character. It doesn't really matter much where you begin; it's a tangled skein, and what you need most to unravel it is patience. Still, it won't hurt to start at the beginning.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Martin. Words of wisdom and pretty much my experience with the KP Readers as well as books authored by others.

Therese
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varuna2



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Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's been a long time since I've struggled with the KP Readers, but the KP system is essentially a timing system based on planetary hours. The Placidus house system roughly aligns with the planetary hours as blocks of time. The KP system is probably the most exact for horary work, but it may be a mistake to apply it to natal astrology.

The varga (divisional) charts and terms (bounds) used in classical western astrology are based on the signs of the zodiac. There is no relationship to the KP daily cycles measured in planetary hours.

The ayanamsa which K.S. Krishnamurti discovered can be used independently of the KP timing system. So some astrologers like myself have adopted it for use in natal astrology. I've also relinquished the KP sub periods in favor of the navamsa and other vargas. The KP sub periods may be useful only in timing events. This area needs a lot of research.

One aspect of the KP system which I'm finding to be valid is how dasas (and their sub periods) are used. I think we've all had the experience of finding ourselves under the period of a planet ruling a certain house, but our lives don't reflect activities related to that house.

The KP system tells us to look instead to lords of the lunar mansions (incorrectly termed "nakshatras" ever since the ancient nakshatras have been changed to 27 equal divisions of the zodiac) along with other factors. Krishnamurti calls these 27 divisions "stars," a nice easy term to remember and type. But their use in the Vimshottari dasa system is another topic altogether.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
It's been a long time since I've struggled with the KP Readers, but the KP system is essentially a timing system based on planetary hours. The Placidus house system roughly aligns with the planetary hours as blocks of time. The KP system is probably the most exact for horary work, but it may be a mistake to apply it to natal astrology.

KP uses Placidus houses, but has no other connection to planetary hours that I know of. Its basic idea is the division of the zodiac into 249 minute divisions called 'subs' (unequal divisions of the 27 [equal] nakshatras, corresponding to the subperiods of Vimshottari dasha). This is applied to natal as well as horary work.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin, I see that I didn't explain myself very well so I'll try again. K.S. Krishnamurti may or may not have understood the technical basis for the Placidus system of house division. But it is the only house system that divides time taken to cover space. Since the planetary hours are divisions of time between sunrise and sunset (and the reverse), the Placidus houses are related to those hours. Each house covers two planetary hours.

So Krishnamurti was correct in using the Placidus houses for his horary work which was based on the precise timing of events. But, no, Krishnamurti didn't consciously relate Placidus houses to planetary hours as far as I know, though he did use planetary hours in his horary work.

I personally don't like the Placidus house system, but it has been said to be the most exact for personality. Since I don't link planets in houses to personality, I've never tested that idea. Also, of course, Placidus houses fail in high latitudes. For those interested in the technical explanation of the various system of house division:

The Modern Textbook of Astrology by Margaret Hone
Larousse Encyclopedia of Astrology (Out of print, but a very good reference book.)

Also a search turned up this quote from Deb Houlding's house system article on the the Skyscript site:

...The Placidus system is purely time-based and thus offers perfect harmony with the use of planetary hours, adding credence to the claim that this could have been an original method of house division, based upon the two-hourly 'watches' of ancient astrologers, who numbered the constellations in the order that the stars within them rose to the ascendant during the twelve watches of the 24-hour period...
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob4.html
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Since the planetary hours are divisions of time between sunrise and sunset (and the reverse), the Placidus houses are related to those hours.

That is often said, but in my opinion the connection is a tenuous one. The planetary hours are based on sunrise and sunset, just as you say; Placidus house cusps are based on the individual semi-arcs of every single degree (or even minute or second of arc, depending on the precision sought) of the ecliptic. Calculating planetary hours by hand is a cinch; calculating Placidus houses is torture.

Quote:
So Krishnamurti was correct in using the Placidus houses for his horary work which was based on the precise timing of events.

This sounds as if you are suggesting some sort of link between timing of events, horary, and planetary hours (tying the latter to Placidus houses), but if so, I'm afraid I don't understand it. Do you mean to say that Placidus houses should be better suited for timing events because the system itself is time-based? (In any case, KP was developed on the basis of natal horoscopes -- twin births, in fact.)
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Therese Hamilton wrote:
Since the planetary hours are divisions of time between sunrise and sunset (and the reverse), the Placidus houses are related to those hours.

That is often said, but in my opinion the connection is a tenuous one. The planetary hours are based on sunrise and sunset, just as you say; Placidus house cusps are based on the individual semi-arcs of every single degree (or even minute or second of arc, depending on the precision sought) of the ecliptic. Calculating planetary hours by hand is a cinch; calculating Placidus houses is torture.

Then the supposed connection isn't exact then? I admit to simply quoting what I've read.

Quote:
Therese: So Krishnamurti was correct in using the Placidus houses for his horary work which was based on the precise timing of events.

Quote:
This sounds as if you are suggesting some sort of link between timing of events, horary, and planetary hours (tying the latter to Placidus houses), but if so, I'm afraid I don't understand it. Do you mean to say that Placidus houses should be better suited for timing events because the system itself is time-based? (In any case, KP was developed on the basis of natal horoscopes -- twin births, in fact.)

I did believe that Krishnamurti chose Placidus houses because he found that Placidus cusps and planets in houses gave correct results for his horary readings. But I am only assuming this since it's been a long time since I studied the Readers. Martin, do you know how Krishnamurti came to choose the Placidus system? (I never did see the first two Readers. Was the information on twins in one of those books? I have the third through sixth Readers.)
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:
Quote:
KP uses Placidus houses, but has no other connection to planetary hours that I know of. Its basic idea is the division of the zodiac into 249 minute divisions called 'subs' (unequal divisions of the 27 [equal] nakshatras, corresponding to the subperiods of Vimshottari dasha). This is applied to natal as well as horary work.

Martin, what have you personally found to work best in natal work? Do you use the Krishnamurti subs? The navasma? Or both for different purposes? I do have the KP tables typed out, but I cannot remember how I used them or if I only experimented with the subs.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Then the supposed connection isn't exact then? I admit to simply quoting what I've read.

Well, it depends on what you mean. If you treat the ascendant degree like the Sun in the calculation of planetary hours (that is, you divide the time it spends above the horizon by 12), then two such 'hours' after birth, the natal ascendant degree will be on the 12th Placidus cusp; after another two 'hours' it will be on the 11th cusp; and so on. But that is not what we need to know in order to establish the actual Placidus cusps at birth (or at the time of a question, etc). To do that, we need to know which degree and minute of the ecliptic had traversed exactly 1/6 of its path above the horizon; which degree and minute had traversed 2/6; etc. There is no easy way of doing that by hand; it takes a lot of iteration, and is not remotely like the calculation of planetary hours.

Quote:
I did believe that Krishnamurti chose Placidus houses because he found that Placidus cusps and planets in houses gave correct results for his horary readings. But I am only assuming this since it's been a long time since I studied the Readers. Martin, do you know how Krishnamurti came to choose the Placidus system? (I never did see the first two Readers. Was the information on twins in one of those books? I have the third through sixth Readers.)

I can't recall off-hand where he mentions the fact that twin births were what put him on to his theory; sorry. (You know what searching through those books would be like.) But the Placidus bit is easy: he got it, and other bits and pieces of western astrology (like aspect theory), from English astrology books, of which there were plenty in India -- the connecting link being not just the Raj, but Theosophy, which had strong links both to India and to the British astrological revival. I suppose it appealed to him because it looked precise, difficult and 'scientific'.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Martin, what have you personally found to work best in natal work? Do you use the Krishnamurti subs? The navasma? Or both for different purposes? I do have the KP tables typed out, but I cannot remember how I used them or if I only experimented with the subs.

I actually haven't used either for a number of years, although I have had interesting experiences with both. I haven't rejected them, but they don't perform consistently enough (in my hands anyway) for me to be able to trust them implicitly. The style of astrology I mainly do now could be called Tajika: it's largely medieval Perso-Arabic techniques in a sidereal zodiac.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:
Quote:
I can't recall off-hand where [Krishnamurti] mentions the fact that twin births were what put him on to his theory; sorry. (You know what searching through those books would be like.) But the Placidus bit is easy: he got it, and other bits and pieces of western astrology (like aspect theory), from English astrology books, of which there were plenty in India -- the connecting link being not just the Raj, but Theosophy, which had strong links both to India and to the British astrological revival. I suppose it appealed to him because it looked precise, difficult and 'scientific'.

Reading the above, I'm wondering if Placidus cusps are even necessary for KP techniques. Certainly Krishnamurti's 249 zodiac divisions (or divisions of "stars") don't depend on Placidus houses. The square charts in the texts are a nightmare to read with the Placidus cusps. If I were younger I'd experiment with KP sans Placidus. Thanks for your extensive reply, Martin.
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