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The Navamsha
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delaforge



Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 9:12 pm    Post subject: The Navamsha Reply with quote

Therese,

I was struggling with two different charts and their two very different navamshas. When I read that you were going to work from a chart set for the Krishnamurti ayanamsha, I slumped in my chair, wondering where I keep the Valium these days.
But it looks as though there is not that much difference between the Krishnamurti and the Lahiri charts, so I'm feeling calmer now.

I haven't come across your method of working with degree overlaps between the natal and navamsha chart before but it makes sense.

I read your analysis with interest. Myself, I'm attempting to read the two navamshas (one for the Lahiri ayanamsha, the other for the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsha) in the same way I'm used to reading the rashi.
Then I hope to go on to reading the navamshas superimposed over their respective rashis - something I have no experience of doing.

Like Varuna, I have external calls on me right now. Will post when I can. Probably in bite-sized chunks.

Melissa
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

varuna2 wrote:
Hi Therese,

Welcome back.

Thank you, Varuna.

Quote:
I believe you meant Moon and not Mars in this statement: "The navamsa chart is also helpful. In the KP navamsa Mars is at 3Ar40. Natal mars is at 5Ar 23." Mars is also aspecting the Moon in the rashi.

Yes, I will fix that.

Quote:
This is a new idea to me: "Sidereal Taurus is one of the literary signs, perhaps the most important one as it's ruled by Venus." Where did that idea come from, or did it reveal itself in your research?

This comes from transposing the tropical "air" signs to (in my opinion) the correct associations in the sidereal zodiac. The sidereal Taurus trigon is mentally and verbally active which often manifests in literary works.
The trigons with examples: http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/atrigon3.htm
Taurus: http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/Ataurus.htm

And, yes, this is from western astrology rather than Jyotish. Actually the trigons as elements was a very late entry in Jyotish, with an obvious source in the west.

Quote:
Do you mean strictly aspect relationships, similar to what you mention including the navamsha chart with this statement: "I've done some research on writers, and a Moon-Mercury contact is a must" - or were there other type of sambandhas, such as being in each other's signs?

The contact can be in a number of different ways including the use of dispositors and mutual reception.

I'm using western terminology in my posts for the benefit of students who might look in on Jyotish posts. They won't know the meaning of Sanskrit terms such as "neecha," "sambandha," etc. I began the study of Jyotish with B.V. Raman's books, and he almost always tried to use English terminology, probably for the benefit of students.

Quote:
In regards to sexuality, in the Fundamentals of Astrology by Bhat, there is a chart comparing the rashi and trimshamsha lords of the lagnas and moons of both chakras, and in Vidal's case the Asc and Moon for both of these charts are labeled as "bad character,"

Can you explain that in more detail? I don't have that book. I mean give the lords and why he says they are "bad character."

Quote:
I have not normally considered the 8th as having to do with sex, this is another new idea to me.

The concept comes from the genitals being associated with Scorpio, the natural 8th house sign. The 8th and its lord would have to do with the sex drive and emphasis on sex in some way. Of course the 8th has other meanings as well. But the 7th is sexual relationships with others.

Quote:
You wrote: "Traditionally in India, navamsa degrees are not used, but I've found them critical to note differences between different ayanamsas." I would add that I have read of jyotishis using the navamsa degrees in comparison with transits, and I have found some contacts, with significant events.

Degrees in varga (divisional) charts are important, and I'm glad they are being given more attention.

Therese
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: The Navamsha Reply with quote

delaforge wrote:
Therese,

I was struggling with two different charts and their two very different navamshas. When I read that you were going to work from a chart set for the Krishnamurti ayanamsha, I slumped in my chair, wondering where I keep the Valium these days.
But it looks as though there is not that much difference between the Krishnamurti and the Lahiri charts, so I'm feeling calmer now.

Yes, the difference is very small, less than a degree in the navamsa chart. The main difference we'll see is that there will be a one degree differnce in overlaps with the natal chart.

Quote:
I read your analysis with interest. Myself, I'm attempting to read the two navamshas (one for the Lahiri ayanamsha, the other for the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsha) in the same way I'm used to reading the rashi.

I don't carry over all the natal techniques into the navamsa chart. But this is best explained with example charts.

Quote:
Then I hope to go on to reading the navamshas superimposed over their respective rashis - something I have no experience of doing.

I've found that mainly the close degree conjunctions are what matter. Sometimes it seems that if a stellium of planets falls in a natal house (sign), that house is emphasized.

Therese
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james_m



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Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi,

i have been reading this thread with some interest for a while now.. thanks to all for sharing your perspective on understanding the navamsha chart better.. i recently read a book by chandulal s patel called 'navamsa in astrology'.. after reading the book i was more confused then before i started. this has happened to me before trying to get my head around vedic astrology which i know very little about, but maintain an interest in.

i am curious since therese seems quite fluent with this language and some of the history, if anyone doing vedic uses the midheaven point or the outers? i notice that therese mentioned uranus position which seems to suggest some do, but about the midheaven i am curious.. you see i was looking at the gore chart using fagan-allen which i also ran a navamsha chart for and happened to see the exact conjunction of the midheaven in the rasi chart to the mars position in the navamsha chart. i was thinking about this focus on sexuality which typically connnects with mars in western astrology and wondering if some folks would look at this as an astrological basis for vidals focus on sexuality?

the other idea that has my curiousity is is the middle of the sign being the cusp, or something to that effect which therese also mentioned using.. this has me scratching my head as i have always thought the sign on the cusp was the house - like whole-sign houses, except with the sidereal zodiac.. the funny thing is i remember reading a long time ago about this cusp as the middle of the house, but the way i have it down in my memory is that the degree was the high point of the house like a crest of a wave is, compared to the trough.. perhaps therese would like to comment on this a bit more if there is something to add to this idea.

one final idea which was actually mentioned in patels book i mentioned upstream is the idea of doing the navamsha chart for the moment and recognizing connections between this transit chart to the natal or rasi chart.. do any of the folks here have any insight into this particular approach? thanks.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi,

i have been reading this thread with some interest for a while now.. thanks to all for sharing your perspective on understanding the navamsha chart better.. i recently read a book by chandulal s patel called 'navamsa in astrology'.. after reading the book i was more confused then before i started. this has happened to me before trying to get my head around vedic astrology which i know very little about, but maintain an interest in.


Hi James,

Often it's not Vedic astrology that is at fault as much as the curious way that Indians construct sentences in English. Then there's the insistence of western Jyotish writers to continue to use Sanskrit terminology rather than the easier-to-understand English. Then there are the square charts which I refuse to use. The circular chart better reflects the sky as we observe it. At noon the Sun is overhead, and not stuck in a box somewhere else in the chart.

i
Quote:
I am curious since therese seems quite fluent with this language and some of the history, if anyone doing vedic uses the midheaven point or the outers?

Many Jyotish astrologers use the outers as important points, though they are not used as sign rulers. The MC is the 10th house cusp in the SriPati system of house division. (Similar to Porphory, but with the cusp as the center of each house.) I would not move the MC from the navamsa chart to the natal chart however, as the MC isn't a planet. I believe it belongs only in the natal chart.

Quote:
i notice that therese mentioned uranus position which seems to suggest some do, but about the midheaven i am curious.. you see i was looking at the gore chart using fagan-allen which i also ran a navamsha chart for and happened to see the exact conjunction of the midheaven in the rasi chart to the mars position in the navamsha chart
.
You mean the navamsa MC is conjunct the natal Mars? No, I wouldn't cross the navamsa MC that way.

Quote:
the other idea that has my curiousity is is the middle of the sign being the cusp, or something to that effect which therese also mentioned using..

It's the degree on the ascendant being used as the center degree of the other eleven houses. This would be the strongest point in each house. V.K. Choudhry's Systems Approach system calls this the MEP (most effective point). This is basically an aspect system with some modification in the different houses.

Whole sign houses have become popular in recent years, but I have not found planets in whole sign houses to be accurate in what the are supposed to describe. The whole sign house system is too general in my opinion. That would mean that every person with the same ascendant sign would have similar planets in all the houses. Common sense says that cannot work.


Quote:
one final idea which was actually mentioned in patels book i mentioned upstream is the idea of doing the navamsha chart for the moment and recognizing connections between this transit chart to the natal or rasi chart.. do any of the folks here have any insight into this particular approach? thanks.

Yes, transits are effective in this way, and transits to the navamsa are a very good test of the ayanamsa since the Fagan chart will be approximately nine degrees less that Lahiri (or Krishnamurti). Natal transits to the navamsa chart are extremely effective.

We can all check this daily by noting transits at the time of important events and testing the transits with our own charts.

Thanks for your questions, James. I really love questions as it forces me to think through various concepts.

Therese
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IAN BRADY
Ian Brady's chart is an excellent example of why the navamsa chart is so important. I don't think astrologers could see a cruel and sadistic man who apparently lacks a conscience in the natal chart alone. But in the navamsa chart the Moon is in fall in Scorpio and at the center of the opposition between Mars in the 5th and Saturn-Pluto in the 11th.

Brady's navamsa chart may also hold a clue to the importance of cuspal degrees in the navamsa. In both the K and F-B charts this configuration is close to the degree of the Libran ascendant. Mars is in the 5th house (sign).

The F-B chart has one aspect that is not in the K chart: Jupiter is in Pisces trine the Moon by one degree. In the K chart Jupiter has moved to Aries and does not aspect the Moon. Since the Jupiter-Moon trine is highly benefic, this aspect would not seem to fit what we know of Brady.

These are the navamsa crossovers in the K chart:
(1) Mercury-Venus in Cancer are in the degree of natal Pluto. (I would not know how to interpret this.)
(2) Navamsa Pluto is in the degree of natal Neptune in the 5th. Navamsa Saturn is one degree away. So Neptune anchors the navamsa malefic T-square (Sorry, western term here.)
(3) Navamsa Ketu is on natal Uranus near the ascendant. I have the sense that this particular Uranus is highly malefic, but I don't know why. Somehow it's a key to the chart, perhaps because it disposits Mars (if Uranus is taken as a co-ruler of Aquarius).
(4) Navamsa Mars is a degree from cusp 11.

I think since the very malefic navamsa combination of Saturn-Pluto sits on Neptune in the natal 5th, this has to be a clue to Brady choosing children as his victims. It seems that the 5th doesn't have to signify only our own children since teachers have planets in the 5th or a prominent 5th lord.

These are the navamsa crossovers in the F-B chart:
(1) Navamsa Moon is in the degree of the natal 8th cusp, so it's this position that anchors the malefic lunar T-cross to the natal chart.
(2) Navamsa Mars is in the degree of natal Mars in Aquarius.
(3) Jupiter is in the degree of cusp 12.
(4) Navamsa Uranus is close to natal Neptune in 5th.

There is a cluster of planets in the natal 9th house: Mer/Ven/Sun/Moon all in Sagittarius. Although Jupiter is in fall in Capricorn, how would astrologers interpret the 9th house? Certainly not as a suggestion that the owner of the chart was a sadistic killer. This chart is a reminder that we really know so very little about astrology.

But I'm thinking that since Jupiter is in mutual reception with Saturn in the 12th that this somehow shifts the emphasis to the 12th and away from the 9th since Jupiter is the control planet for the Sagittarius planets. Perhaps someone else has thoughts about the cluster of planets in the 9th?

Therese
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varuna2



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Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vruna, thansk for the notes from Bhat. I've copied them and will print them to put with my Jyotish references. I'll have to look into Bhat's books.

I agree that the MC in the navamsa is probably meaningless. In Gore Videl's chart it's the F-B navamsa MC that is in the degree of natal Mars, so we wouldn't be seeing that as an effective cross-over. I also hadn't noticed the 8th house aspect of Videl's Mars to the 6th house Moon. Thanks for pointing that out. I think I missed it because Mars is with other planets and had gone post the Moon by degree.

So anyway you look at it, Videl's Moon is strongly influenced by Mars. The Krishnamurti and Lahiri navamsa Mars conjunction to natal Moon only adds more emphasis.

Re: preferred chart forms: It's interesting how each of our brains is wired differently and how that's reflected in our chart preference. I've always been drawn to circle motifs. Even as an art student so many years ago, the professor asked if I couldn't please depart from all my circles! Smile

Therese
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delaforge



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Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 7:34 pm    Post subject: The Navamsha Reply with quote

Therese,

You wrote:-

Quote:
Re: preferred chart forms: It's interesting how each of our brains is wired differently and how that's reflected in our chart preference.

I favor the South Indian style of chart. So you, Varuna and I all work with different chart-types. Our opinions seem similarly diverse also.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 9:58 pm    Post subject: Navamsa Jupiter Between Lahiri and Krsihnamurti Reply with quote

I've found an example of the difference between Lahiri and Krishnamurti in Ian Brady's chart. I cannot remember specific examples, but it's differences like this that helped me decide to replace Lahiri with the Krishnamurti ayanamsa.

In Brady's Lahiri chart Jupiter is at 9 Cap 59. This gives a navamsa position of 29 Psc 55, so in that chart Jupiter is trine the Moon at 28 Sco 53. Thus, both Lahiri and F-B give a Jupiter trine Moon in the navamsa chart.

Brady's Krishnamurti Jupiter is at 10 Cap 05. Navamsa Jupiter is at 0 Ari 47. So in this case the very small 5 min 47 seconds difference between Lahiri and Krishnamurti makes an important difference in the navamsa chart. K.S. Krishnamurti adjusted the Lahiri ayanamsa on the basis of extremely precise horary work. Some of these cases are discussed in his books.

Also Jupiter's move to Aries places it with Ketu in the navamsa chart. Ketu can have rather bizarre psychological associations. (See Prash Trivedi's KEY OF LIFE.) And Jupiter is the planet of children.

Software: Solar Fire v. 5.1.2 (2003)

Therese
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james_m



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Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese

thanks for your response and supportive comments.. "most effective point" - the degree of the ascendant and by extension the cusp for all the other houses - i agree with this person and it is a bit like whole-sign houses the way i use them anyway.

just to be clear - about the navamsha transit chart - at present t saturn would be at 20 virgo using sidereal fb.. it will stay in virgo for a while, as will t uranus in libra and etc. etc. this book suggests any cross over from the natal to the navamsha transit chart has bearing.. i am not talking transit chart, but navamsha transit chart, which might strike some here as odd. it is one of the novel ideas i took away from his book..

i like and share your attitude about circle charts..

varuna - thanks for sharing. for me this navamsha chart is a 9th harmonic chart. i don't understand why the 9th harmonic would be of relevance for the planets but not for the midheaven, but call me someone who likes to rock the boat and not adhere strictly to tradition.. the idea of not incorporating the midheaven in the navamsha or 9th harmonic makes no sense to me if you do it for the planets.. but then i use the outers too, so i am not following tradition, but still very much curious to know it.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
therese

thanks for your response and supportive comments.. "most effective point" - the degree of the ascendant and by extension the cusp for all the other houses - i agree with this person and it is a bit like whole-sign houses the way i use them anyway.

The difference from whole sign houses is that every moment of time moves the planets closer or further away from the cusps. This is a useful key to note the differences in charts because for each person we'll see the planets that are closest to the equal house cusps.

Quote:
just to be clear - about the navamsha transit chart - at present t saturn would be at 20 virgo using sidereal fb.. it will stay in virgo for a while, as will t uranus in libra and etc. etc. this book suggests any cross over from the natal to the navamsha transit chart has bearing.. i am not talking transit chart, but navamsha transit chart, which might strike some here as odd. it is one of the novel ideas i took away from his book..

Do you mean that the author suggests that when the navamsa planets conjoin natal navamsa planets or natal rasi planets, these will be significant contacts? I'm not quite understanding what the book says.

So trying to use an example: At this time, yes the F-B Saturn is about 20 Virgo, but the K Saturn is about 29 Virgo. (Lahiri would be about 28 Virgo.)

So what I would suggest as an experiment is to watch the navamsa transiting degrees with two ayanamsas and see when they exactly hit planets in your own rasi or navamsa chart. (I think this is what your are saying?)

I would say, however, if you are relating transiting planets to natal charts that contacts to natal rasi or navamsa planets would have to be close by degree to be effective.

Or are you (or the author...) saying that we'll see the influence of the transiting navamsa as a stand alone influence by sign?

I'm a little confused about what the author is saying.

It would be interesting for those of us who are having this discussion to set up two transiting navamsa charts each day (F-B and L or K) and note exact contacts to our own natal and navamsa planets. Just now I set up the F-B and K current charts, and I see that mean K Rahu is on my rasi Sun degree which is my 9th house lord. Not only have I been feeling very strange mentally (Rahu connects us to the astral), but after a break I've begun long distance (internet) communication again to those in foreign countries. (One meaning of Rahu is foreign lands and contacts.)

F-B Uranus is still in Libra, but is now in the first degree of K Scorpio. Soon it will contact my rasi Mercury at 5 Scorpio.

So we can all watch for exact transiting navamsa contacts to our rasi planets.
Should we also be noting exact transits to our natal navamsa planets?

Something to think about.

Therese
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, I'm recalling a book someone mentioned to me recently by a "Patel." In the book you have, are the chapters reprints of magazine articles? If so, I may have the magazines if the articles are from B.V. Raman's THE ASTROLOGICAL MAGAZINE.
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delaforge



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Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 10:45 am    Post subject: The Navamsha Reply with quote

Therese,

Something happened last night. I wanted to explore it in relation to the navamsha positions of transiting planets as you suggested. Will post my thoughts under a New Topic: Navamsha Transit. Feel it would be better not to have two navamsha topics, both of which might develop into something complex, alternating in the same thread.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese - my response is in bold

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Do you mean that the author suggests that when the navamsa planets conjoin natal navamsa planets or natal rasi planets, these will be significant contacts? I'm not quite understanding what the book says.

james gets from his read of patels book what you are trying to do in your quote here below.. take the navamsha transit chart and apply it to the natal chart..

So trying to use an example: At this time, yes the F-B Saturn is about 20 Virgo, but the K Saturn is about 29 Virgo. (Lahiri would be about 28 Virgo.)

So what I would suggest as an experiment is to watch the navamsa transiting degrees with two ayanamsas and see when they exactly hit planets in your own rasi or navamsa chart. (I think this is what your are saying?)

but i am not suggesting this :

I would say, however, if you are relating transiting planets to natal charts that contacts to natal rasi or navamsa planets would have to be close by degree to be effective.

or this :

Or are you (or the author...) saying that we'll see the influence of the transiting navamsa as a stand alone influence by sign?

I'm a little confused about what the author is saying.

you will have to get the book which appears to have many innovative ideas and seems fairly exhaustive.

again, what you say below is what i believe the author is suggesting, so it appears you are indeed getting this idea!!

It would be interesting for those of us who are having this discussion to set up two transiting navamsa charts each day (F-B and L or K) and note exact contacts to our own natal and navamsa planets.


Just now I set up the F-B and K current charts, and I see that mean K Rahu is on my rasi Sun degree which is my 9th house lord. Not only have I been feeling very strange mentally (Rahu connects us to the astral), but after a break I've begun long distance (internet) communication again to those in foreign countries. (One meaning of Rahu is foreign lands and contacts.)

F-B Uranus is still in Libra, but is now in the first degree of K Scorpio. Soon it will contact my rasi Mercury at 5 Scorpio.

So we can all watch for exact transiting navamsa contacts to our rasi planets.
Should we also be noting exact transits to our natal navamsa planets?

therese - i will have to read it again to answer this question immediately above specifically, but i believe it is just transit navamsha to rasi.. it might also include t navamsha to natal navamsha..

Something to think about.

Therese



the book you refer to with articles from the astrological magazine is a different book by patel which i haven't read.. the one i read was navamsha in astrology..

see this page for the 2 books that the author patel has written on the navamsha.
http://www.astroamerica.com/v-patel.html#p34
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