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House of death
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jorge



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 124

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:00 pm    Post subject: House of death Reply with quote

Hi
traditionally the 8th is the house of death.Yet the 12th being the last house, could also lay claim to ruling death.
As i mentioned in another thread 2 cousins of mine lost 2 siblings when they were in the prime of life.
Both have the 3rd lord in 12th in WSH system.

Furthermore, my 3rd lord is the Sun in 8th. My only sibling is alive at 52.
The IC is in 3rd too, mother is 81 since yesterday. I received a small inheritance when Jupiter was conjunct Sun in 1996, still, lords of 6,12 ,5,and 11 are conjunct Sun there
My dad passed away with breast cancer when I was 21 which fits with Sun there, but note that the Sun is in sect and has no evil aspects.
And I still fail to see the link with 3rd house- siblings, comunication, writing,documents.
Do you know celebrities with lord of 3 in 8 I can compare with?

Thanks
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Paul
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Joined: 23 Nov 2009
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: House of death Reply with quote

jorge wrote:
Hi
traditionally the 8th is the house of death.Yet the 12th being the last house, could also lay claim to ruling death.
As i mentioned in another thread 2 cousins of mine lost 2 siblings when they were in the prime of life.
Both have the 3rd lord in 12th in WSH system.

Furthermore, my 3rd lord is the Sun in 8th. My only sibling is alive at 52.
The IC is in 3rd too, mother is 81 since yesterday. I received a small inheritance when Jupiter was conjunct Sun in 1996, still, lords of 6,12 ,5,and 11 are conjunct Sun there
My dad passed away with breast cancer when I was 21 which fits with Sun there, but note that the Sun is in sect and has no evil aspects.
And I still fail to see the link with 3rd house- siblings, comunication, writing,documents.
Do you know celebrities with lord of 3 in 8 I can compare with?

Thanks


What has Lord 3 in the 12th got to do with death though? Why Lord 3? Why not Lord 2? Or 5?

The 8th rules the beginning of death for observational reasons pertaining to the sun's descent toward setting (see Deb Houlding's "The Houses: Temples of the Sky" for more details).

Other houses which may lay claim to death might be the 7th and 4th.

At the 12th, the sun has just risen in all its glory. This is hardly a great analogy of death.
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jorge



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: House of death Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
jorge wrote:
Hi traditionally the 8th is the house of death.Yet the 12th being the last house, could also lay claim to ruling death. As i mentioned in another thread 2 cousins of mine lost 2 siblings when they were in the prime of life. Both have the 3rd lord in 12th in WSH system. Furthermore, my 3rd lord is the Sun in 8th. My only sibling is alive at 52. The IC is in 3rd too, mother is 81 since yesterday. I received a small inheritance when Jupiter was conjunct Sun in 1996, still, lords of 6,12 ,5,and 11 are conjunct Sun there My dad passed away with breast cancer when I was 21 which fits with Sun there, but note that the Sun is in sect and has no evil aspects. And I still fail to see the link with 3rd house- siblings, comunication, writing,documents. Do you know celebrities with lord of 3 in 8 I can compare with? Thanks
What has Lord 3 in the 12th got to do with death though? Why Lord 3? Why not Lord 2? Or 5? The 8th rules the beginning of death for observational reasons pertaining to the sun's descent toward setting (see Deb Houlding's "The Houses: Temples of the Sky" for more details). Other houses which may lay claim to death might be the 7th and 4th. At the 12th, the sun has just risen in all its glory. This is hardly a great analogy of death.
Yes I heard comments that in the past 7th was the house of death when Sun had just set. Wonder why they switched to 8th later?
But I use empirical data not just theory
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Paul
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Re: House of death Reply with quote

jorge wrote:

But I use empirical data not just theory


An interesting approach. What degree of empiricism do you demand of yourself? For example do you maintain that Aries is a fire sign ruled by Mars. If so what empirical data demonstrates that Aries isn't a wood sign or a water sign, and why Mars and not Ceres is empirically the ruler?
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:

Quote:
An interesting approach. What degree of empiricism do you demand of yourself? For example do you maintain that Aries is a fire sign ruled by Mars. If so what empirical data demonstrates that Aries isn't a wood sign or a water sign, and why Mars and not Ceres is empirically the ruler?


To Jorge,

And what empirical data tells you that the sign Aries is even significant and effective at all as an influence? My bet is that you've simply accepted Aries and the other signs merely on faith as a given factor in astrology. Just like everyone else. You didn't need empirical data. Just belief. Something about astrology appealed to you and drew you toward it, and you entered into it in a state of acceptance. Just like the rest of us.


When it comes to death I've noticed goings-on with houses 4 and 7. They also make more complete sense symbolically. The 12th - not directly. Perhaps some sort of indirect signification.
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jorge



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
Paul wrote:

Quote:
An interesting approach. What degree of empiricism do you demand of yourself? For example do you maintain that Aries is a fire sign ruled by Mars. If so what empirical data demonstrates that Aries isn't a wood sign or a water sign, and why Mars and not Ceres is empirically the ruler?


To Jorge,

And what empirical data tells you that the sign Aries is even significant and effective at all as an influence? My bet is that you've simply accepted Aries and the other signs merely on faith as a given factor in astrology. Just like everyone else. You didn't need empirical data. Just belief. Something about astrology appealed to you and drew you toward it, and you entered into it in a state of acceptance. Just like the rest of us.


When it comes to death I've noticed goings-on with houses 4 and 7. They also make more complete sense symbolically. The 12th - not directly. Perhaps some sort of indirect signification.


All we can do is test the claims made since Ptolemy right?
As for the 4th house,its supposed to be the last part of life according to tradition
Ever visited www.rudolfhsmit.nl
?
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Paul
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jorge wrote:

All we can do is test the claims made since Ptolemy right?
As for the 4th house,its supposed to be the last part of life according to tradition


Which claims and what tests have you performed against those claims? Why focus on 'since' Ptolemy? Why not include Ptolemy himself and also earlier authors?

In what sense have you tested death and what are Ptolemy's claims regarding death in the context of this discussion regarding Lord 3 being found in the 12th?

Bearing in mind that all people die, what significance is there for Lord 3 being natally in the 12th. I can guarantee you that all persons with Lord 3 natally in every single other house will also die. Similarly all people who have siblings they have seen die will have Lord 3 somewhere - not necessarily the 12th house. Are these the tests you've done?

Quote:
Ever visited www.rudolfhsmit.nl


Yes. I found a great deal of it to be poorly written and the design of the site rankles me (I'm a web designer).
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jorge



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
jorge wrote:
All we can do is test the claims made since Ptolemy right? As for the 4th house,its supposed to be the last part of life according to tradition
Which claims and what tests have you performed against those claims? Why focus on 'since' Ptolemy? Why not include Ptolemy himself and also earlier authors? In what sense have you tested death and what are Ptolemy's claims regarding death in the context of this discussion regarding Lord 3 being found in the 12th? Bearing in mind that all people die, what significance is there for Lord 3 being natally in the 12th. I can guarantee you that all persons with Lord 3 natally in every single other house will also die. Similarly all people who have siblings they have seen die will have Lord 3 somewhere - not necessarily the 12th house. Are these the tests you've done?
Quote:
Ever visited www.rudolfhsmit.nl
Yes. I found a great deal of it to be poorly written and the design of the site rankles me (I'm a web designer).


I havent done tests cause they require a lot of data. People die but as a rule not so young. I have sun in 8,my dad died when i was 21.Thats more significant than dying when im 35 or 45. But two brothers i know have sun in 8 in WSH and their father is still alive at 72.
What i do is verify the planets position when i just had a conflict,this is easier. As a rule Moon or Mars are in bad aspect with my Sun or mars
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Paul
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jorge wrote:

I havent done tests cause they require a lot of data.


Okay, but wasn't doing empirical tests your reason for moving away from the traditional model?

Quote:
People die but as a rule not so young. I have sun in 8,my dad died when i was 21.Thats more significant than dying when im 35 or 45.


I am 27 next month. I have sun, mars and mercury in the 8th. My dad is still alive and well.
Do you have any brothers or sisters? Where is their sun?

I think it's clear that nobody has suggested that the Sun in the 8th indicates early death for the father. If you yourself contend that there are many examples to the contrary, why exactly are we discussing it in that context?
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Tom
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Death requires more than a single placement or astrological event or I would have been dead a long time by now and so would anyone else with a planet in the 8th. I recently saw a chart, and I wish I could recall whose, I think it was a celebrity, who had the ASC ruler in the 8th, a recurrent theme in premature deaths, and the native died in his late 80s or early 90s.

The death of siblings would be 10th house, 8th of the 10th. The 12th is the native's house, not his siblings. The second is the 12th of the 3rd. The 12th is the house of sorrows and there may be an astrological connection between the death of the siblings and the resulting sorrow felt by the natives.

The more I look at charts and how they manifest in the life, the more I think we need a piling up of testimonies to make a sensible prediction (of anything) even with hindsight. So having Lord 1 in 8 just is not enough to claim premature death or lord 3 in 12. That we see it often in charts is an indication that it is a red flag, not a certainty.

To see how these multiple testimonies work, I suggest reading either Worsdale or Morin or ideally both. Morin's book on solar returns demonstrates relentless bearing down on the native by the planets for good or for ill. Worsdale does this with a variety of techniques. When several pile up on the native, things happen.
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Clelia Romano



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Location: São Paulo

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Death requires more than a single placement or astrological event or I would have been dead a long time by now and so would anyone else with a planet in the 8th. I recently saw a chart, and I wish I could recall whose, I think it was a celebrity, who had the ASC ruler in the 8th, a recurrent theme in premature deaths, and the native died in his late 80s or early 90s.

The death of siblings would be 10th house, 8th of the 10th. The 12th is the native's house, not his siblings. The second is the 12th of the 3rd. The 12th is the house of sorrows and there may be an astrological connection between the death of the siblings and the resulting sorrow felt by the natives.

The more I look at charts and how they manifest in the life, the more I think we need a piling up of testimonies to make a sensible prediction (of anything) even with hindsight. So having Lord 1 in 8 just is not enough to claim premature death or lord 3 in 12. That we see it often in charts is an indication that it is a red flag, not a certainty.

To see how these multiple testimonies work, I suggest reading either Worsdale or Morin or ideally both. Morin's book on solar returns demonstrates relentless bearing down on the native by the planets for good or for ill. Worsdale does this with a variety of techniques. When several pile up on the native, things happen.



I fully agree. The most I study the most I get aware that not only death prediction but predictions of all kind are very tricky and demand a full knowledge of theories and techniques that are very comprehensive and needing a high astrological maturity. I like to study death because it is an indisputable accident in life, no subject of any controversies. But any prediction need the same depth approach: at first a full delineation and after that the attention to firdars, profections, solar revolutions (the most timely technique) and of course directions. Any topic is only able to happen in the native´s life if all of these techniques pointed in a certain direction saying that something important will happen in a given year relating to some or other significator.
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Clelia Romano



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wandering if the 7th gave its place as the death place to the 8th when the octopus kind of chart changed for a twelve fold places. But this is only a guess.

Besides that the 7th continues to be a controversial house in terms of good and bad: partnership and enemies.
The meaning of certain houses is somewhat an ambiguous issue.
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varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
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Location: Lemuria

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 6:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1340

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Above all we should not forget that, if house 8 is the house of the horoscope of a certain native, all meanings of house eight are relating to this native. So house eight tells something of the death of this navitive, and only of this native's death. To learn something of other persons death we have to turn the chart, as Tom did above.

Thus house 12 being the 8th of the 5th, shows the death of the native's child or children. The father's death is shown in the 11th being the 8th of the 4th.

Johannes
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 447

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Clelia Romano:
Quote:
I was wandering if the 7th gave its place as the death place to the 8th when the octopus kind of chart changed for a twelve fold places. But this is only a guess.


The octatopos (8 topical house system) and dodecatopos (12 topical house system):

The anonymous author of the Michigan Papyrus cites Asclepius as the source of the 8-topic system whereas Thrasyllus and Antiochus gave the credit to Nechepso. It is sort of accepted that the 12-topic system originated from Hermes.

However, Robert Schmidt argued that the original 8 topical house system is not the one explicated by Jim Tester in his book "History of Western Astrology" where the whole zodiac is divided into 4 and then later, into 8. Rather, the first eight signs of the zodiac beginning from the ascendant were assigned topics in the eight topic house system (where sign = house) and the rest were NOT NAMED. The 12 topic house system gave topics to all of the 12 signs beginning from ascendant. Even though there were diagrams that clearly depicted 8 division of the octatopos in Firmicus Maternus book "Mathesis", these diagrams are inserted by the translator (referring to the Jean Rhys Bram edition). Schmidt claims that the meanings of the twelfth house that we have now are the conflation of the original 12 house and 8 house topic.

On the topic of death: the 7th?
Some astrologers claim that those who follow the Greeks say that the eighth house represents death whereas those who follow the Egyptians say that the seventh governs death as this is the point of death for the Sun (the Sun is considered to die in the west when it sinks and reborn everyday when it rises in the east). In fact, we can see this "Egyptian" association of the seventh to death in part in Ptolemaic calculation of length of life (i.e. if a luminary is hyleg and it is in the quadrant between tenth and seventh, direction of the luminary to the seventh represents death of the native) - with addition and subtraction of the benefics and malefics...

It is also tempting to say that the seventh is opposite the first and if the first represents life, the seventh represents anti-life or death (but this is perhaps more modern than traditional)

On the topic of death: the 8th?
As mentioned above, it seems that the Greeks give death to the eighth house. The reason usually given is that it is the house that does not aspect the first but then, the 2nd, the 6th and the 12th are also not in aspect to the first. This is made clear (somewhat) by Porphyry [see Porphyry the Philosopher by James Holden, Chapter 52]:
The angles are the most important/powerful houses. According to Porphyry (and other astrologers as well), the first represents the early life, the tenth represents native’s prime time (midlife), the seventh represents his twilight years (the period that is close to his death but not death!) and the fourth represents his “days” after death e.g. this is the house to look into for fame after death (but it could be also the house to look into for the native’s roots as it is a circle!).

The “modern” and some medieval astrologers extrapolated this theory into a continuum which was NOT what Porphyry intended. Porphyry clearly mentions that the cadent of the angle always comes BEFORE the angles and the succedent of the angles always comes AFTER the angles. Example: The cadent of the first (which is the 12th house) represents before birth and the succedent of the first (which is the second) comes after. Hence, the first is the middle of the early period, the delivery itself, the 12th is before delivery and the 2nd is following delivery. This is why the ancients look into the 12th to see how the mother carries the native and the 2nd for the well-being of the native in terms of taking in nutrients from the mother’s milk.

So, the seventh is the period towards the very end of life and the cadent of the seventh (6th) which comes before the seventh represents sickness and the eighth becomes death itself as it follows the very end period of life (which has to be death!).

On the topic of death: the 4th?
There are a few references to the 4th being the house of death but I think that it is more of the house of burial or final place of rest i.e. graveyard (which has more connection to the 4th). It is interesting that almost all of the medieval astrologers give death to the first triplicity lord of the eighth and some Hellenistic/Persian astrologers give death to the first triplicity lord of the fourth but then the fourth and the eighth are trine to each other and hence, has the same first triplicity lord (if you use whole sign system).

So, it seems that the seventh and the eighth share strongly in the matters of death. It is interesting to note that in the hypothetical Thema Mundi (Chart of the World), Cancer rises and hence, the seventh (Capricorn) and the eighth houses (Aquarius) are ruled by Saturn which is a natural ruler of death! AND Saturn is the exalted lord of Libra which happens to be the fourth house in the Thema Mundi!
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