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Lilly's Considerations
compiled by D. Houlding
Book II of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
translated by David Pingree
Compiled by Deborah Houlding
The Babylonian Astrolabe: the Calendar of Creation, by Rumen K. Kolev
Reviewed by Gill Zukovskis

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Not all cadent houses are weak, alledgedly
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jorge



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 124

Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Not all cadent houses are weak, alledgedly Reply with quote

http://www.astrologycom.com/values.html

According to this table cadent houses weak but not the 9th.
A planet gets minus points for being in 12th and 6th but +2 for the 9th.
Succedent 9 being evil, minus 4. Is this what the Greeks taught too?

thanks
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Yuriy



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 360

Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Not all cadent houses are weak, alledgedly Reply with quote

jorge wrote:
http://www.astrologycom.com/values.html

According to this table cadent houses weak but not the 9th.
A planet gets minus points for being in 12th and 6th but +2 for the 9th.
Succedent 9 being evil, minus 4. Is this what the Greeks taught too?
thanks


Even 6th and 12th adding to strength if placement of planet's joy, like Mars strong(in joy) in 6th and Saturn in 12th
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Paul
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Not all cadent houses are weak, alledgedly Reply with quote

jorge wrote:
http://www.astrologycom.com/values.html

According to this table cadent houses weak but not the 9th.
A planet gets minus points for being in 12th and 6th but +2 for the 9th.
Succedent 9 being evil, minus 4. Is this what the Greeks taught too?

thanks


Cadent houses can, simplistically, be considered weak. All houses in aversion to the ascendant can also be said to be weak. However the 3rd and 9th, although cadent, are not in aversion to the ascendant, therefore they would not be as weak as the 12th and 6th.

I'm using your words for weak btw. I'm not necessarily that comfortable with that term as it can become loaded.
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jorge



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Not all cadent houses are weak, alledgedly Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
jorge wrote:
http://www.astrologycom.com/values.html According to this table cadent houses weak but not the 9th. A planet gets minus points for being in 12th and 6th but +2 for the 9th. Succedent 9 being evil, minus 4. Is this what the Greeks taught too? thanks
Cadent houses can, simplistically, be considered weak. All houses in aversion to the ascendant can also be said to be weak. However the 3rd and 9th, although cadent, are not in aversion to the ascendant, therefore they would not be as weak as the 12th and 6th. I'm using your words for weak btw. I'm not necessarily that comfortable with that term as it can become loaded.


I think the reason they are weak is due to the association with mutability and changeable character and circunstances,lack of stability,exile or having to move to make a living
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Paul
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Not all cadent houses are weak, alledgedly Reply with quote

jorge wrote:
Paul wrote:
jorge wrote:
http://www.astrologycom.com/values.html According to this table cadent houses weak but not the 9th. A planet gets minus points for being in 12th and 6th but +2 for the 9th. Succedent 9 being evil, minus 4. Is this what the Greeks taught too? thanks
Cadent houses can, simplistically, be considered weak. All houses in aversion to the ascendant can also be said to be weak. However the 3rd and 9th, although cadent, are not in aversion to the ascendant, therefore they would not be as weak as the 12th and 6th. I'm using your words for weak btw. I'm not necessarily that comfortable with that term as it can become loaded.


I think the reason they are weak is due to the association with mutability and changeable character and circunstances,lack of stability,exile or having to move to make a living


No I'm explaining to you why they are weak.

Your rationale here does not make sense.
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jorge



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Not all cadent houses are weak, alledgedly Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
jorge wrote:
Paul wrote:
jorge wrote:
http://www.astrologycom.com/values.html According to this table cadent houses weak but not the 9th. A planet gets minus points for being in 12th and 6th but +2 for the 9th. Succedent 9 being evil, minus 4. Is this what the Greeks taught too? thanks
Cadent houses can, simplistically, be considered weak. All houses in aversion to the ascendant can also be said to be weak. However the 3rd and 9th, although cadent, are not in aversion to the ascendant, therefore they would not be as weak as the 12th and 6th. I'm using your words for weak btw. I'm not necessarily that comfortable with that term as it can become loaded.
I think the reason they are weak is due to the association with mutability and changeable character and circunstances,lack of stability,exile or having to move to make a living
No I'm explaining to you why they are weak. Your rationale here does not make sense.
Anyway the Gauguelin study wouldnt make much sense then. Heres some examples. My cousin.: University teacher, 6th place in the Butterfly swimming competition at the 1964 Olyimpics in Japan. Nobody had ever performed such a feat in this country . He gives lectures on Motore disorders like Dyslexia round the world and I always see him reading. Scorpio rising,Sun in Aries Mars conjunct Saturn in 9th in Cancer trine ASC, night birth. This is what Curtis Manwaring says about Mars there: At night, Mars, particularly if it is in good dignity, is good for getting to the bottom of issues regarding life and death. It is particularly good for sports professionals as the Gauquelin research has shown. According to Lilly, those so born would not make good christians and are haters of God. [43] It is interesting that Mars' color (red) is often how the church depicts the devil. If Mars is afflicted or out of sect and in debility it can indicate danger or violence while traveling abroad However Saturn is poorly placed. He has a few complexes, notably towards foreigners, which leads many of us to tell him he is too negative. In the Summer i always see him sitting in cafes far from tourists
I also wonder if he turned an otherwise nagative Mars in cancer into a positive thing by becoming a swimmer(cancer sport).
Where i get my doubts about the effect of sect and dignity is in my chart. Curtis says wonders about Saturn dignified in 9th same for Jupiter there in sect. Yet i didnt finnish school,enrolled for university at 30, and left after 3 years, cause I dont like the social aspect of universities (group work, socializing, putting up with teachers i dont like or dont like me), and prefer Open University where everything is done from home and online,more or less at my own pace. Furthermore the idea of spending 5 years at the Uni is a put off. I dont know if Saturn being under the capricorn Sunīs beams is enough to cause that(capricorn in aversion to Aquarius hates knowledge) but remember many famous scientists are Capricorns Regarding travel and emigration, it was mixed blessing, the only trip that went without mishap was the one that was fully planned, back in 2009. But as a rule, I dont make much planning
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jorge



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another case that doesnt do justice to mars by day.
Cousin born 17 sept 1951 12.30 pm madrid
: Administrator ,run several companies and now retired playing Golf round the world hobnobbing with the gentry.

Scorpio rising,Mars in Leo in 10, Sun in 11 along with Mercury and Venus.
Saturn exalted by sign and house in 12th ruling h3.
Yet 2 of his siblings died in the prime of their lives.

he is meddlesome, tacteless, annoying..but successful. Doesnt fit very well with out of sect Mars


Last edited by jorge on Tue May 08, 2012 11:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think the reason they are weak is due to the association with mutability and changeable character and circumstances,lack of stability,exile or having to move to make a living [k: bold emphasis mine]


As far a mutability goes, if you're getting it from the Mutable signs that's a case where you (and most of us) have been misled by a misunderstanding of late-in-the-day astrology. The signs and houses do not have any sort of historical natural connection. Western astrology did not develop with an inherent link between the zodiac and the houses. You have to go trough many centuries of astrological writings before you find it. Gemini is the 3rd sign and there is the cadent 3rd house, but the 3rd house is NOT the 'natural' house of Gemini – historically there is no 'natural' attribution of Mutable to the 3rd. Likewise, the 3rd is not an Air house. There are no Fire, Water, Air, and Earth houses in any sort of 'natural' way because, once again, the signs are not associated with the houses in that respect.

However, without reference to the Mutable signs a person could still refer to the cadent houses as indicators of mutability due to their being the places of falling from the high state of the angles. Falling from one condition into another is an example of mutability.

SO . . . we can still refer to the cadent houses as houses of mutability, but for a different reason than is commonly accepted these days.
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Paul
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:

As far a mutability goes, if you're getting it from the Mutable signs that's a case where you (and most of us) have been misled by a misunderstanding of late-in-the-day astrology. The signs and houses do not have any sort of historical natural connection.


Originally I thought this is what he meant too, but he's comparing one cadent house against another, so surely if one was considered mutable so too would the other. It doesn't quite make sense.

It's worth putting the caveat on your point, before he does or someone else does, that the main place where there is a link between signs and houses is in the realm of medical astrology.
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jorge



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
Kirk wrote:
As far a mutability goes, if you're getting it from the Mutable signs that's a case where you (and most of us) have been misled by a misunderstanding of late-in-the-day astrology. The signs and houses do not have any sort of historical natural connection.
Originally I thought this is what he meant too, but he's comparing one cadent house against another, so surely if one was considered mutable so too would the other. It doesn't quite make sense. It's worth putting the caveat on your point, before he does or someone else does, that the main place where there is a link between signs and houses is in the realm of medical astrology.


I see what you guys mean.
Going back to case studies ,heres a gentleman who sells domestic appliances like fridges, cookers,washing machines.
10th house amd MC ruler Mars is in 4th and IC in Libra in sect as it is night birth, but Saturn in pisces in 9th is out of sect.As a good sagitarius with cancer rising with virgo Moon in 3rd opposite Saturn,he loves travelling and talks a lot about it,but apparently there have been problems too. He complained about a trip to the USA, where he and all his countrymen were sent packing from the Hotel by the Costa Rican Hotel owner because alledgedly people of his nationality,do not spend money, they just look in the shops,but have no money to buy. I could hardly believe but apparently it really happened.
This fits with Saturn in 9

His ruler opposite Saturn he gets exalted when he talks politics and his wife doesnt like and says she will never come out again with him again cause he speaks to loud
Mars angular squares Venus angular in 7 by sign
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###



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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's worth putting the caveat on your point, before he does or someone else does, that the main place where there is a link between signs and houses is in the realm of medical astrology.


Thank you. I'm usually careful about putting that in.

I have come to the conclusion that Lilly unintentionally contributed to the problem through not clearly spelling out that the sign/house connections he listed in his Christian Astrology were strictly medical. However, the fact that he didn't may be a clear indication that in 1647 there was no need to make such a statement - it was understood.

In all fairness to Lilly, later readers probably have been careless and assumed he was meaning it in a more general way. Especially since the 'Astrological Alphabet' silliness of the late 20th century. These days students reading Lilly tend to assume that he is confirming a sign/house connection.


Now I should think of something to say about cadent houses in order to get us back on track, but nothing comes to mind. Instead, I will go outside and play in the garden dirt and sunshine.
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jorge



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
Quote:
It's worth putting the caveat on your point, before he does or someone else does, that the main place where there is a link between signs and houses is in the realm of medical astrology.
Thank you. I'm usually careful about putting that in. I have come to the conclusion that Lilly unintentionally contributed to the problem through not clearly spelling out that the sign/house connections he listed in his Christian Astrology were strictly medical. However, the fact that he didn't may be a clear indication that in 1647 there was no need to make such a statement - it was understood. In all fairness to Lilly, later readers probably have been careless and assumed he was meaning it in a more general way. Especially since the 'Astrological Alphabet' silliness of the late 20th century. These days students reading Lilly tend to assume that he is confirming a sign/house connection. Now I should think of something to say about cadent houses in order to get us back on track, but nothing comes to mind. Instead, I will go outside and play in the garden dirt and sunshine.


My problem with Lilly is that it is written in old english Very Happy
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jorge wrote:
Another case that doesnt do justice to mars by day.
Cousin born 17 sept 1951 12.10 pm madrid
: Administrator ,run several companies and now retired playing Golf round the world hobnobbing with the gentry.

Scorpio rising,Mars in Leo in 10, Sun in 11 along with Mercury and Venus.
Saturn exalted by sign and house in 12th ruling h3.
Yet 2 of his siblings died in the prime of their lives.

he is meddlesome, tacteless, annoying..but successful. Doesnt fit very well with out of sect Mars


Well, that looks like textbook Mars by day (out of sect) in my opinion. Anyway, about him being succesful, have you tried to look at his Sun in the 10th house by division, and his Mercury conjunct his MC degree, in Virgo? Even by Whole Signs, a Sun closing in to the MC degree by primary motion, being him a general significator of eminence, would be of paramount importance.

And have you considered that Saturn is in the place of Mars detriment, ruling siblings, and that Mars is a general significator of accidents and rules the 6th by WS in this chart?

Perhaps this man lost his first sibling when he was 15 to 16, when Mars gets to Saturn by PD.
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jorge



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PFN wrote:
jorge wrote:
Another case that doesnt do justice to mars by day. Cousin born 17 sept 1951 12.10 pm madrid : Administrator ,run several companies and now retired playing Golf round the world hobnobbing with the gentry. Scorpio rising,Mars in Leo in 10, Sun in 11 along with Mercury and Venus. Saturn exalted by sign and house in 12th ruling h3. Yet 2 of his siblings died in the prime of their lives. he is meddlesome, tacteless, annoying..but successful. Doesnt fit very well with out of sect Mars
Well, that looks like textbook Mars by day (out of sect) in my opinion. Anyway, about him being succesful, have you tried to look at his Sun in the 10th house by division, and his Mercury conjunct his MC degree, in Virgo? Even by Whole Signs, a Sun closing in to the MC degree by primary motion, being him a general significator of eminence, would be of paramount importance. And have you considered that Saturn is in the place of Mars detriment, ruling siblings, and that Mars is a general significator of accidents and rules the 6th by WS in this chart? Perhaps this man lost his first sibling when he was 15 to 16, when Mars gets to Saturn by PD.
Oops man, It was 12.30 not 12.10. Hit the wrong key. Still mercury is at MC. He lost sister in 1981 at age 29. His other sister,incidentally born during the day,has Jupiter,ruler of 3rd, in sagitarius in 12th as well. So both have lord of 3rd in 12,but the planet is in great condition. She is precocious,became a doctor very early in life,which goes to show that mercury under the beams isnt that bad. One thing the ancients didnt know is that planets dont get burned by the Sun or anything of the sort,as they couldnt send satellites out to space. Andre Barbault has also claimed war armistices tend to happen during Sun jupiter or Sun venus conjunctions The precocious girl was born on 26 august 1948 at 17.40 in madrid
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jorge



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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

she died when mercury ruler of 8 had just passed saturn by PD on his chart
Interesting
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