sexual relationship and unfaithfulness

1
I haven't read any author explaining horary questions about sexual relationships("Is he engaged in sexual relationships?") unless it is an unfaithfulness question.

Modern astrologers use 5th from 1st and 7th for sexual relationships. No astrologer has used that in the past.

How would you answer a question like that?

Bonatti says if the 7th lord or Moon seperated from any planet less than 3 degrees they did have someone but was it sexual?

2
It always depends on the exact question an on the chart. But as a general guideline look at the significators being in strong dignities of the Sun to show physical interest in a Man and Venus in a woman.

Suppose the question is: did X (man) and Y (woman) have sexual contact? And the chart shows X's significator separating from an aspect (specially a trine or a conjunction) from Venus, that would be a strong testimony for "yes". Or the Sun and Venus in separating aspect.

3
I don't understand use of the 7th house. That house signifies commited relationships, rather than sexuality, I would think. The 5th should be seen more for romance and sexuality, but does not indicate commitment. Very interesting use of the sun and venus, but makes absolute sense. However, I have seen many horaries where the two wer separating without actual sex having taken place, just a signifier of a fading attraction. perhaps combining the separating
planets and some connection to the fifth house?

4
Indeed, in a question a bout sexuality I have often got one or both persons' significators in house 5 or in strong dignities of L5.

I know some people use L5 for casual relationships and L7 for committed relationships. I don't. I always use L7 for the partner/person no matter what type of relationship it is, and L5 for pleasure or sex, but never as a significator for the person.

5
An extra comment:

Unfaithfulness might be shown by conjunctions by antiscion or a significator conjunct Neptune (for those who use the outer planets. I do use them selectively and Neptune can show things done in a hidden way) and/or a significator who is not honest being an essentially debilitated planet.

But again, it always depends on the chart; these are only general thoughts.

Re: sexual relationship and unfaithfulness

6
cgreen wrote:Modern astrologers use 5th from 1st and 7th for sexual relationships. No astrologer has used that in the past.
lakewind wrote:I don't understand use of the 7th house. That house signifies commited relationships, rather than sexuality, I would think. The 5th should be seen more for romance and sexuality, but does not indicate commitment.
Read for instance
Lilly, Christian Astrology, p. 54:

"The seventh House.

It giveth judgment of Marriage, and describes the person
inquired after, whether it be Man or Woman, all manner of
Love questions
, our publique enemies; the Defendant in a Law-
suit, in Warre the opposing party; all Quarrels, Duels, Law-
suits; in Astrology the Artist himselfe; in Physicke the Physi-
tian; Theeves and Thefts; the person stealing, whether Man
or Woman, [...]"

Johannes

7
. . . and as complement Lilly on the fifth house.

Lilly, Christian Astrology, p. 53:

"The fifth House

By this house we judge of Children, of Embassadours, of
the state of a Woman with child, of Banquets, of Ale-houses,
Taverns, Playes, Messengers or Agents for Republicks; of
the Wealth of the Father, the Ammunition of a Towne be-
sieged; if the Woman with child shall bring forth man or wo-
man; of the health or sicknesse of his Son or Daughter that
asks the Question. [...]"

Johannes

8
johannes susato wrote:. . . and as complement Lilly on the fifth house.

Lilly, Christian Astrology, p. 53:

"The fifth House

By this house we judge of Children, of Embassadours, of
the state of a Woman with child, of Banquets, of Ale-houses,
Taverns, Playes, Messengers or Agents for Republicks; of
the Wealth of the Father, the Ammunition of a Towne be-
sieged; if the Woman with child shall bring forth man or wo-
man; of the health or sicknesse of his Son or Daughter that
asks the Question. [...]"

Johannes
Nothing about sexual relationships, no astrologer has used the 5th for sexual relationships in the past.

In an unfaithfulness horary question, Bonatti says if the 7th lord or Moon seperated from any planet less than 3 degrees they did have someone but was it sexual?

9
In order to know if it was sexual we need to look at sexual indications such as the Sun, Venus or perhaps some connection with L5. We will not judge the 5th house as a person. But suppose both significators are in conjunction in the 5th house, that would be a strong testimony for sexual contact.

Plus each context, therefore each chart, gives us unique clues. So, if you have a chart please post it as it will make it easier to determine.

10
Hi all,

A few thoughts. I do think we have to be careful about saying things like "no astrologer" said this or that. There are a lot of untranslated manuscripts, and no matter how someone might have copied out the standard meanings of the houses from previous people, in their own practices astrologers might indeed have used the fifth sometimes for sex. (Plus, Bonatti does talk about this, see below.) Naturally, in days prior to easy contraception, sex and pregnancy were even more closely linked; plus, the fifth house does indicate entertainments and fun, and Venus has her joy there. So there are good historical and conceptual reasons to believe that the fifth can indicate sexual pleasure.

Bonatti himself also suggests the 5th for having an affair (i.e., illicit sexual pleasure), on p. 437 of my translation (Tr. 6, Part II, 7th House, Ch. 2). The question is, "what will impede the marriage?" If the malefic harming the significators is the lord of the 5th, one of the indications is that the woman "had another man." I take this to be a pretty clear comment about sexuality. Because even if you supposed that it was only a friend or romantic interest that the querent was jealous of, he must be jealous because of the implication of a sexual relationship.

Bonatti also says on p. 123 (Tr. 2, Part 3, Ch. 6), in a question about a suspect wife, if the lord of the 7th (the wife) is in the 5th, "it seems that she is not without stain."

When I first started learning modern astrology as a kid, I remember reading somewhere that the fifth was for boyfriends and girlfriends because they're not that serious and are more pleasure-based, while the seventh was for marriage. But Bonatti says a couple of times that the seventh can indicate a girlfriend (Lat. amasia) and not just a wife. So it seems to me that the seventh indicates a relationship connection, while the fifth indicates the pleasure, IF pleasure is of special interest. Most relationships are sexual as a matter of course so there's little need to isolate that element of it if someone's just interested in "relationships." But if the fifth house comes up importantly in a seventh-house, relationship question, I'd say you'd have to look at the issue of pleasure and fun.

People with problematic fifth houses in the nativity can have problematic relationships with all sorts of pleasures, and since sex is one of the chief pleasures, I'd say the fifth can indicate it for that reason, too. So context matters.

Cgreen, in the example from Bonatti you give (pp. 443-44 of my edition, or Tr. 6, Part II, 7th House, Ch. 5), the question is whether a wife is "doing it" with someone else. So the question is sexual in nature, but it's about what the wife herself has been up to. Bonatti and his sources decide that the lord of the 7th will be the wife, and they want to know if she has already connected with some other planet (indicating adultery), or she is only applying and has not connected yet (indicating no adultery). Bonatti underscores this by pointing out that the applications and separations show whether she is really guilty, no matter what the rumors say. So it is indeed a sexually-related question designed to indicate sexual activity, but one centered on the wife and what she is doing, via the movements of lord of the 7th. It does not rule out the use of the 5th, but they made the decision to use the applications and separations instead.

In the previous Chapter (pp. 440-43), Bonatti and his sources answer explicitly sexual questions in different ways, such as using quadruplicities as well as natural significations.

So I think we have to pay attention to the type of question, and the context, and also if the fifth house is jumping out at us.

Best,
Ben
www.bendykes.com
Traditional Astrology Texts and Teaching

11
Hi Ben,
I understand astrologers have used that in the past, but have they used it exclusively as modern astrologers do today?

Modern astrologers use it as a main significator, for example, if Mercury is the wife(7th lord) and Saturn is the 5th from 7th and there is no aspect between them, separating or applying and they are not in the 5th, the wife has been faithful.
Cgreen, in the example from Bonatti you give (pp. 443-44 of my edition, or Tr. 6, Part II, 7th House, Ch. 5), the question is whether a wife is "doing it" with someone else. So the question is sexual in nature, but it's about what the wife herself has been up to. Bonatti and his sources decide that the lord of the 7th will be the wife, and they want to know if she has already connected with some other planet (indicating adultery), or she is only applying and has not connected yet (indicating no adultery). Bonatti underscores this by pointing out that the applications and separations show whether she is really guilty, no matter what the rumors say. So it is indeed a sexually-related question designed to indicate sexual activity, but one centered on the wife and what she is doing, via the movements of lord of the 7th. It does not rule out the use of the 5th, but they made the decision to use the applications and separations instead.
The question is sexual in nature but he doesn't specify that if 7th lord or Moon's separated from any planet and less than 3 degrees indicating adultery or only applying and has not connected yet indicating no adultery.

If 7th lord or Moon applying to any planet, wouldn't it be a future event(adultery)?

Bonatti says that the Moon in a Cardinal sign and applying to a planet indicating adultery though.