skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Godfather of Modernity: The Alan Leo Legacy Vol. One - Early Astrological Journals 1890-1912, compiled by Philip M Graves
Reviewed by Deborah Houlding
Lilly's Considerations
compiled by D. Houlding
Book II of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
translated by David Pingree
Compiled by Deborah Houlding
The Babylonian Astrolabe: the Calendar of Creation, by Rumen K. Kolev
Reviewed by Gill Zukovskis

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Aquarius not so individualistic
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 323
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 7:13 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:00 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 295

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
Of course, as I've said countless time, this is part of the problem of using a term like Psychological Astrology without fully defining it.



I woud have said it has been fairly well defined over the years. Here are a load of quotes which might shed more light on the modus operandi for you and others:


‘What is within surrounds US’(Rilke)

‘A man’s life is characteristic of itself’ (Jung)

Astrology is an event in consciousness not an event in nature (Hand)

‘Can provide a surgical scalpel which cuts through to the underlying motives,

complexes and family inheritance which lie behind the manifest problems and

difficulties which the individual faces. It can also provide a lens through which can

be viewed the teleology and purpose of our conflicts in the context of the overall

meaning of the individual’s journey’. (CPA Prospectus)

‘If you do not know yourself you live in poverty and you are that poverty.’’(Hand)

‘’In the 'Ennead', noted alchemist Plotinus relates that astrological influence is based on a principle of cosmic unity. Everything manifests itself from a Divine Source, all things are interconnected with one another and as such are 'signifiers' (archetypes) of each other within a divinely regulated plan or system.

This same hermetic cosmology underlies Ficino's 'natural magic', a system based largly on the adepts inner action with the operative components of the psyche as revealed thru astrological symbolism, its timing and structure. This inner-active 'opus' was achieved through what was later defined by analytical psychology as, 'active imagination'. The imagination allowed access to a meaningful (in both the subjective and objective sense) inner image and allowed for a co-operative inner action with the image itself. This inner image was a bridge which sympathetically connected the adept to the underlying collective astrological archetype in order to achieve a harmonious expression of the collective archetype within the sphere of the adepts physical reality. This system of 'natural magic' became a means to provide an inner active access to the components of the personal and collective unconscious and which also provided a structure and timing for the psyche based on the astological archetypal model’’. (Boyd)

''. Overlapping with, but fundamentally different from, astrology as divination are the more philosophically inclined Neoplatonic and Hermetic approaches, which can encompass such complex spheres as astral magic and theurgy – even more emphasised in medieval Kabbalistic astrology – but which tend, above all, to view astrological configurations as symbols of a unified cosmos rather than either mechanical causes or representatives of a plurality of celestial powers. The idea of correspondences or ‘sympathies’ can be found in both divinatory and Neoplatonic/Hermetic approaches, but the latter tend to be more ‘inward’ and what we might now understand as psychological in the broadest sense. (Greene)

"Ficino's anima mundi bears a strong relationship with the 'objective psyche' as Jung calls it, the indefinable world-stuff which stretches across the boundaries between psyche and body, between spirit and substance, which belongs to both and to neither, and which is accessible to us through the images of our dreams and fantasies. Work on this stuff in accordance with one's natal pattern , suggests Ficino, and one builds the connecting link (or participates in a link which is already existent but unexperienced) between God and his creations, between Ideas and corporeal reality, between archetype and instinct, between freedom and fate."(Greene)

"As far as I could see, the tradition that might have connected gnosis with the present seemed to have been severed, and for a long time it proved impossible to find any bridge that led from gnosticism - or neo-Platonism - to the contemporary world. But when I began to understand alchemy, I realized that it represented the historical link with gnosticism, and that a continuity therefore existed between past and present ... This was of course a momentous discovery. I had stumbled upon the historical counterpart of my psychology of the unconscious. The possibility of a comparison with alchemy and the uninterrupted intellectual chain back to gnosticism gave substance to my psychology (Jung).

"...astrological coincidences suggest that the universe can indeed be known by the human mind, because the universe's operative principles are principles with which human experience is directly and intimately familiar from within ~ that is to say, the universe's operative principles are archetypes which are both subjective and objective, simultaneously informing not only human experience but also planetary motions. As Plato affirmed, the categories of the human mind are also categories of a universal mind, the two minds being intimately connected. (Tarnas).

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."(Gnostic gospels)

‘Get on with it, get a life and work at it’ (Greene).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 295

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
I think it's safe to say that these days the common initial approach to astrology, and the base which is returned to, is as a tool to explore one's inner self.


I don't think this is at all ''safe Kirk, at least it is not my experience. Over 30 yrs I think I can safely count on the fingers of one hand those who on discovering I had an interest in astrology did not ask me if I could tell them something about the future. People tend to be pretty surprised when you reply not in the way you may be thinking.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 323
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 7:15 am; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul
Moderator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1144

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nixx wrote:
Paul wrote:
Of course, as I've said countless time, this is part of the problem of using a term like Psychological Astrology without fully defining it.



I woud have said it has been fairly well defined over the years. Here are a load of quotes which might shed more light on the modus operandi for you and others:


Unfortunately none of those quotes differentiated psychological astrology from Psychological Astrology. I'm left with the assumption its the CPA kind, in which case I would disagree that it's the dominant model in Europe, or the UK at least. I think work by Robert Hand, Sue Tompkins, Melanie Reinhart, Noel Tyl etc etc would be too prolific to say that the CPA is the most dominant. I would agree that the psychological approach is dominant, of course.

However, in truth, I don't think it's actually what clients who come to astrologers are particularly looking for. With the resurgence of traditional techniques, once lost to us, I expect a big shift in astrology toward incorporating these traditional techniques, even if within a psychological model.

It's very seldom a client comes to an astrologer for counselling etc. it's more likely to come with a problem which they want an answer to or advice on how to fix it. I'm not denying that a psychological approach helps in some matters, but a non-psychological one is equally important in my view. Quesetions about money, career, romance and so on are all very important to people and people come to astrologers for advice or insight on those matters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 295

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

varuna2 wrote:

To clarify the source of a couple of quotes (unless the second one is in a different gnostic text and actually in the form stated above):




Thanks for clarifying.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 295

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
. Quesetions about money, career, romance and so on are all very important to people and people come to astrologers for advice or insight on those matters.


What question either about these matters or any other which someone might think an astrologer can answer isn't fundamentally psychological?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul
Moderator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1144

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nixx wrote:
Paul wrote:
. Quesetions about money, career, romance and so on are all very important to people and people come to astrologers for advice or insight on those matters.


What question either about these matters or any other which someone might think an astrologer can answer isn't fundamentally psychological?


The hunger pains in your stomach when you can't afford to buy food cos you lost your job?, the homelessness that occurs when the bank takes over your house, the inability to pay for the university course you had hoped for which may cripple your financial ability in the future etc etc.

It may be nice to say "Will you lose your job? Who cares! The importance is on the psychological effect that might have on you!"

Yes our psychology processes and perhaps deals with our responses to such questions, however most of us acknowledge that there is a psychological component to life as well as a physical component.

If an astrologer deals with times which are important for career, to the native who comes to this astrologer knowing the times which are important for career is more important to them than a lecture on why they want to know in the first place and why and how it impacts the psychology of their being. Such things may also be useful, but aren't necessarily what the client came to hear. However, it's a bit, in my view, patronising to assume that the client needs to ignore their actual question in favour of our proselytising on psychological motivation.

I actually think most people come, or at least return, for information more on what things they can expect in the fields of romance and career, not on their psychological reaction to those things. Will I lose my job, yes or no, not how will losing my job affect my psychology if such a thing were to happen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LeeRutland



Joined: 20 May 2010
Posts: 27

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said, Paul!

Thumbs up Thumbs up Thumbs up
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 295

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
The hunger pains in your stomach when you can't afford to buy food cos you lost your job?, the homelessness that occurs when the bank takes over your house, the inability to pay for the university course you had hoped for which may cripple your financial ability in the future etc etc.



I don’t think you are imagining what Psychology is in the usual dictionary way. Pain is psychological it is an emotion, as is hunger. Romance is emotional attraction, therefore psychological. Career, which we can define as being an activity that occupies your mind/body for significant portions of the day for a number of years is psychological. Everything you do or experience on this planet is psychological. I don't think you will be able to find a question asked in an astrological setting that isn't psychologically generated and the outcomes non psychological ones. A Horoscope is also a Mental Construct , let’ s not forget this psychological reality either!

If someone asks an astrologer if they will be able to pay the University fees they are really asking how will they will be feeling in the future in relation to this issue, or what they think is a matter which is having a specific impact on their mental and physical well being.

If you conceptualise astrological endeavours in the way you appear to then you would see the objective of the exchange as saying to the person there is an 81.34 % or whatever chance of you being able to pay these fees based solely on the chart patterns of your delectation. Whereas the Psychological focus is to enter into a discussion as to why are they asking this question, in addition to pondering on the horoscopy of whether or not it is a positive/negative to be seriously or not concerned with and so forth. That being said if it was me I would probably start of by saying have you got any money to pay the fees and if not have you thought of printing some, getting a better paid job, suggesting the wife goes on the ‘game’ , etc. Common sense, similar to grounded Liz’s ‘’get on with it....’.

Incidentally Melanie used to be a course tutor at the CPA!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul
Moderator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1144

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nixx wrote:

I don’t think you are imagining what Psychology is in the usual dictionary way. Pain is psychological it is an emotion, as is hunger. Romance is emotional attraction, therefore psychological. Career, which we can define as being an activity that occupies your mind/body for significant portions of the day for a number of years is psychological. Everything you do or experience on this planet is psychological.


No. Everything which we experience we may process via our psychology but not everything in life is psychological. One can fall off a ladder or have a brick fall on one's head and be injured. Oh sure, your psychology will be impacted and you will process the pain psychologically but ultimately when we, generally, do not associate a brick falling on your head with something psychological. It's a big old bump on your head!

We might also say that most things in life are experienced as an embodied being and are therefore physical. Falling in love releases endorphins and hormones in the brain. Your career generates income etc etc.
Everything is processed psychologically yes, but is also lived as an embodied being.

Quote:
If someone asks an astrologer if they will be able to pay the University fees they are really asking how will they will be feeling in the future in relation to this issue, or what they think is a matter which is having a specific impact on their mental and physical well being.


I'm afraid I find this way too condescending. Some people just want to know if they can afford the University fees in time so that they can plan and adjust with that in mind. I think it would be ridiculously patronising to tell that person "oh don't worry dear, who cares if you get in or not, what's important is how you feel about it at the time".
In horary if someone asks "where are my missing keys", I'd love to watch the exchange unfold when the astrologer says "who cares, let's talk about how you're feeling right now trapped outside your house with kids due to arrive home in the next half hour and now way of getting inside and snow due on the way. Let's talk about how you're feeling about all that instead".

Quote:
Whereas the Psychological focus is to enter into a discussion as to why are they asking this question, in addition to pondering on the horoscopy of whether or not it is a positive/negative to be seriously or not concerned with and so forth.


Yes, I know what psychology is and where it can be useful. Sometimes a psychological approach is the better approach. My point is that not all things are.

Quote:
That being said if it was me I would probably start of by saying have you got any money to pay the fees and if not have you thought of printing some, getting a better paid job, suggesting the wife goes on the ‘game’ , etc. Common sense, similar to grounded Liz’s ‘’get on with it....’.


Yes really the entire psychological approach could be summed up by Liz's "get on with it" approach. Or, as I prefer, the "get over it and move on" approach.

In the meantime people who have gotten over it still need to know should they accept this new job, where are those missing keys, when a career highlight might be, whether such and such a romance is probable, and general guidance about their lives and its unfolding as an embodied being.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 295

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:

No. Everything which we experience we may process via our psychology but not everything in life is psychological. One can fall off a ladder or have a brick fall on one's head and be injured. Oh sure, your psychology will be impacted and you will process the pain psychologically but ultimately when we, generally, do not associate a brick falling on your head with something psychological. It's a big old bump on your head!



How about 2 identical twins aged 35 and 3 mths having two identical bricks fall on their head on the same day and place, from the same height, etc. One twin says handy a few days of work and the other goes this pain is unbearable. Or ouch. Ignoring the psychological differences, or lack of in your mind, how do you horoscopically process these two ‘’lumps’’ and reactions to them. Is one more lumpy and the other not even fit to be labelled a lump? To make it more interesting let’s create a third twin with ‘congenital insensitivity to pain with anhidrosis (CIPA)’, who fails to notice or feel the brick on the head. Can we lump her in with the other two ?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 6 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated