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Aquarius not so individualistic
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jorge



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Jorge wrote:
Quote:
Suppose then one is born with Saturn in capricorn by day.Since Saturn is favorable by day,would that Saturn function like a Saturn in Aquarius? And the reverse for a night birth with Sat in Aquarius?
No and no. The signs dont swap meanings due to planetary sect. Capricorn is a cardinal, nocturnal, feminine earthy, and animal sign. Aquarius is a fixed, masculine, diurnal, airy, and human. Aquarius is linked to the sanguine humour and Capricorn the melancholic. A planet out of sect works less effectively for the native. In a case of Saturn in Capricorn in a night chart it could still be negative because in this chart it is the malefic out of sect. We all have either Saturn (night births) or Mars (day births) working as the malefic out of sect. Even with essential dignity it can work against us. For example, I was looking at a woman's chart yesterday with Saturn in Capricorn in a night chart where Saturn was in the 5th house by Whole sign + Placidus. I will not go into too much detail but a major tragedy of her life was her inability to have children. She is now in her early 50's. Mark
You hit the nail in the thread.My sister born at night,has Saturn in cappy in 6th,Placidus,cant have kids. She was operated to remove fat from her belly,in the process they had to remove her Ovaries. One for Placidus too as in WSH she would have Sat in 7 . Plus Jupiter in Scorpio in 5. Amazing

What if in the day chart Mars is conjunct Venus,which likes the day.Does that makes Venus stronger even if Mars is exalted by sign,though not by degree?
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jorge



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Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

come to think of it,a conjunction betwen Venus and Mars or Mars and Sun can never be good as one will always be out of sect. In day birth Mars will make the person hot tempered or overly sexual in love A Saturn Jupiter conj will invariably be nice

update: my midtake venus is a night planet,so,venus mars conjunction can only be good by night
by day must be...overwhelming


Last edited by jorge on Sun May 06, 2012 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorge wrote:

Quote:
What if in the day chart Mars is conjunct Venus,which likes the day.Does that makes Venus stronger even if Mars is exalted by sign,though not by degree?


Delineation obviously involves various factors like house rulerships, house placement, essential dignity, aspects, receptions etc etc etc.

However, in general terms we have the same issue of Mars operating as a planet that has essential dignity but being the malefic out of sect in a day chart. Although, there is some mitigation with Mars in a feminine, nocturnal sign (Capricorn). Mars is preferable at night chart in a feminine sign. The ancients said Mars had its 'joy' in Scorpio. In a night chart the heat of Mars is moderated by the coolness of the night. Similarly in a day chart the coldness of Saturn is moderated by the heat of the day.

I try to avoid terms like 'weak' or 'strong' as they are over used in traditional astrology. I prefer to see a planet in sect -ideally by day/night, sign, and above/below horizon as simply more effective or harmonious. Planetary phase in relation to the sun also impacts on planetary sect and the condition of planets.

Many ancient astrologers treated planetary sect as equally as important as essential dignity in assessing the effectiveness of a planet. However, the emphasis on sect declined in medieval astrology and was a relatively minor consideration by the time of 17th century astrologers like Lilly. It has completely disappeared from the radar of modern astrologers.

If anyone wants to follow this topic up I highly recommend Robert Hand's book:

Night and Day: Planetary Sect in Astrology

Its available from his ARHAT website:

http://www.arhatmedia.com/newavailpub.htm

Mark
_________________
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Sun May 06, 2012 4:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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jorge



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 124

Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Jorge
Quote:
What if in the day chart Mars is conjunct Venus,which likes the day.Does that makes Venus stronger even if Mars is exalted by sign,though not by degree?
Delineation obviously involves various factors like house rulerships, house placement, essential dignity, aspects, receptions etc etc etc. However, in general terms we have the same issue of Mars operating as a planet that has essential dignity but being the malefic out of sect in a day chart. Although, there is some mitigation with Mars in a feminine, nocturnal sign (Capricorn). Mars is preferable in night chart in a feminine sign. The ancients said Mars had its 'joy' in Scorpio. In a night chart the heat of Mars is moderated by the coolness of the night. Similarly in a day chart the coldness of Saturn is moderated by the heat of the day. I try to avoid terms like 'weak' or 'strong' as they are over used in traditional astrology. I prefer to see a planet in sect -ideally by day/night, sign, and above/below horizon as simply more effective or harmonious. Planetary phase in relation to the sun also impacts on planetary sect and the condition of planets. Many ancient astrologers treated planetary sect as equally as important as essential dignity in assessing the effectiveness of a planet. However, the emphasis on sect declined in medieval astrology and was a relatively minor consideration by the time of 17th century astrologers like Lilly. It has completely disappeared from the radar of modern astrologers. If anyone wants to follow this topic up I highly recommend Robert Hand's book: Night and Day: Planetary Sect in Astrology Its available from his ARHAT website: http://www.arhatmedia.com/newavailpub.htm Mark
Why would they ignore sect? People don`t abandon something without a reason. Yet yor example of the lady who cant have kids is telling of the power of sect. Unless her Saturn has evil aspects regardless of sect?
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Mark
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorge wrote:
Quote:
Why would they ignore sect? People don`t abandon something without a reason. Yet yor example of the lady who cant have kids is telling of the power of sect. Unless her Saturn has evil aspects regardless of sect?


I dont think it was a conscious decision to abandon sect. It seems in the transmission from the Greeks to the Persians and Arabs much was 'lost in translation'. Hence the emphasis moved away from the fundamental focus on the chart being night or day. Emphasis was still made on whether planets were above or below the horizon and sign placement. However, much of the basic philosophy underlying sect was lost so the idea obviously made less sense or was at least seen as a relatively minor consideration.

Quote:
Unless her Saturn has evil aspects regardless of sect?


In the chart concerned Saturn was in a separating opposition to the Moon in Cancer in the 11th. Although the aspect was a few degrees past perfection I do think it was very significant with the life affirming Moon being opposed WS by Saturn which is inimical to life. The Moon in Cancer was very prominent in this person's primary motivation over her Sagittarian Sun. I attributed this to the combination of the Moon's dignity, good house placement and its status as the sect light of the chart. This seemed to resonate with the native who had trained as a nurse and spent much of her life caring for sick relatives.

Mark
_________________
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Sun May 06, 2012 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jorge



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Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Jorge wrote:
Quote:
Why would they ignore sect? People don`t abandon something without a reason. Yet yor example of the lady who cant have kids is telling of the power of sect. Unless her Saturn has evil aspects regardless of sect?
I dont think it was a conscious decision to abandon sect. It seems in the transmission from the Greeks to the Persians and Arabs much was 'lost in translation'. Hence the emphasis moved away from the fundamental focus on the chart being night or day. Emphasis was still made on whether planets were above or below the horizon and sign placement. However, much of the basic philosophy underlying sect was lost so the idea obviously made less sense or was at least seen as a relatively minor consideration.
Quote:
Unless her Saturn has evil aspects regardless of sect?
In the chart concerned Saturn was in a separating opposition to the Moon in Cancer in the 11th. Although the aspect was a few degrees past perfection I do think it was very significant with the life affirming Moon being opposed WS by Saturn which is inimical to life. The Moon in Cancer was very prominent in this person's primary motivation over her Sagittarian Sun. I attributed this to the fact due to the combination of the Moon's dignity, good house placement and its status as the sect light of the chart. Mark


In my sisters chart,Moon is applying to opposition to Saturn.It rules Cancer ASC, is at 23 Gemini in 12th house.Saturn is at 1 Capricorn
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jorge



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Jorge wrote:
Quote:
Suppose then one is born with Saturn in capricorn by day.Since Saturn is favorable by day,would that Saturn function like a Saturn in Aquarius? And the reverse for a night birth with Sat in Aquarius?
No and no. The signs dont swap meanings due to planetary sect. Capricorn is a cardinal, nocturnal, feminine, earthy, and animal sign. Aquarius is a fixed, masculine, diurnal, airy, and human. Aquarius is linked to the sanguine humour and Capricorn the melancholic. A planet out of sect works less effectively for the native. In a case of Saturn in Capricorn in a night chart it could still be negative because in this chart it is the malefic out of sect. We all have either Saturn (night births) or Mars (day births) working as the malefic out of sect. Even with essential dignity it can work against us. For example, I was looking at a woman's chart yesterday with Saturn in Capricorn in a night chart where Saturn was in the 5th house by Whole sign + Placidus. I will not go into too much detail but a major tragedy of her life was her inability to have children. She is now in her early 50's. Mark


In my day chart sun jupiter and saturn are not only in sect but above the horizon, Moon ,Venus and Mars are not only out of sect but above the horizon.
So the good are very good the bad very bad Confused
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jorge



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Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Jorge wrote:
Quote:
Suppose then one is born with Saturn in capricorn by day.Since Saturn is favorable by day,would that Saturn function like a Saturn in Aquarius?
And the reverse for a night birth with Sat in Aquarius?


No and no. The signs dont swap meanings due to planetary sect. Capricorn is a cardinal, nocturnal, feminine, earthy, and animal sign. Aquarius is a fixed, masculine, diurnal, airy, and human. Aquarius is linked to the sanguine humour and Capricorn the melancholic.

A planet out of sect works less effectively for the native. In a case of Saturn in Capricorn in a night chart it could still be negative because in this chart it is the malefic out of sect. We all have either Saturn (night births) or Mars (day births) working as the malefic out of sect. Even with essential dignity it can work against us. For example, I was looking at a woman's chart yesterday with Saturn in Capricorn in a night chart where Saturn was in the 5th house by Whole sign + Placidus. I will not go into too much detail but a major tragedy of her life was her inability to have children. She is now in her early 50's.

Mark


Mark

Since there seems to be a Mars effect for Athlets(gauguelin) , Ive been wondering whether those who have it out of sect will be different from those with it in sect.
Mike Tyson was a nasty guy so I would expect him to have an out of sect Mars.
His time of birth is not available,I wonder if anyone knows the full chart of some bad guy boxers or other sportsmen?
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Mark
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
Quote:
Astrology has always had this uneasy blend of the factual and the imaginal.


Indeed. This sounds very reminiscent of Geoffrey Cornelius' ideas in his book 'The Moment of Astrology'. He used the terms of an astrology based on supposed 'causes' versus 'signs'.

Sounds like this discussion is migrating to the philosophy forum....

Mark
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As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly
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jorge



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Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Kirk wrote:
Quote:
Astrology has always had this uneasy blend of the factual and the imaginal.
Indeed. This sounds very reminiscent of Geoffrey Cornelius' ideas in his book 'The Moment of Astrology'. He used the terms of an astrology based on supposed 'causes' versus 'signs'. Sounds like this discussion is migrating to the philosophy forum.... Mark


Im not British but am an Empiricist.
I suggest testing claims rather than wonderful philosophical lectures on grandiose ideas Lala Happy
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Paul
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jorge wrote:

Im not British but am an Empiricist.
I suggest testing claims rather than wonderful philosophical lectures on grandiose ideas Lala Happy


You say this, but what does this mean? In what sense are you an empiricist and to what level have you tested the claims? Be they of sidereal astrology or tropical astrology?

Quote:
That suggests seasonal influences(winter,moist etc) which again ,are a headache if you`re an Australian Astrologer. An Aquarius born in Sydney would then have Sunny,dry qualities like Leo,rather than Saturnine ones.
Remember those were the days of flat Earth. If you wanted to learn Astronomy would you by a book by Ptolemy or by say,Carl Sagan?


If you disagree with tropical astrology then you should consider taking up sidereal astrology. There is a sidereal forum on this website with some great sidereal astrologers who participate on this newly created forum.

Some tropical astrologers in the antipodes do indeed alter their understanding of the signs to accommodate for the seasonal differences. I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, just observing that it happens.

I agree that the hemisphere issues are a potential problem with the tropical model but also agree that there are equally problems with the sidereal model. Nothing is perfect. We're just going to have to deal with that.

In the meantime we return to the issue of Aquarius and being individualistic, or not.
I personally do not think that Aquarius is all that individualistic, not any more so than any other sign. I do not think that 'individualism' is determined by one planetary placement with respect of only examining its dignity in a sign. I dont' think that makes sense to me and I don't think I've observed it to be true in reality.
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jorge



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Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
jorge wrote:
Im not British but am an Empiricist. I suggest testing claims rather than wonderful philosophical lectures on grandiose ideas Lala Happy
You say this, but what does this mean? In what sense are you an empiricist and to what level have you tested the claims? Be they of sidereal astrology or tropical astrology?
Quote:
That suggests seasonal influences(winter,moist etc) which again ,are a headache if you`re an Australian Astrologer. An Aquarius born in Sydney would then have Sunny,dry qualities like Leo,rather than Saturnine ones. Remember those were the days of flat Earth. If you wanted to learn Astronomy would you by a book by Ptolemy or by say,Carl Sagan?
If you disagree with tropical astrology then you should consider taking up sidereal astrology. There is a sidereal forum on this website with some great sidereal astrologers who participate on this newly created forum. Some tropical astrologers in the antipodes do indeed alter their understanding of the signs to accommodate for the seasonal differences. I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, just observing that it happens. I agree that the hemisphere issues are a potential problem with the tropical model but also agree that there are equally problems with the sidereal model. Nothing is perfect. We're just going to have to deal with that. In the meantime we return to the issue of Aquarius and being individualistic, or not. I personally do not think that Aquarius is all that individualistic, not any more so than any other sign. I do not think that 'individualism' is determined by one planetary placement with respect of only examining its dignity in a sign. I dont' think that makes sense to me and I don't think I've observed it to be true in reality.


Actually the more i read Manwaring on Aquarius the more I think it rules Scandinavia ans the Sun and Leo the South especially Italy, but the entire south was heavily influenced by Rome,hence the gaps betwen the powerful, who are above the law, and the poor.
The individualistic Aquarius is a Uranian thing
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Kenneth Johnson



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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk writes:

Quote:
The signs have taken on some pretty radically different characteristics the past century or so. In the astrological literature of the two thousand years before 20th century astrology you don't find talk of Aquarius being individualistic or rebellious, or of Leo dancing around and wearing a lampshade on its head anything to get some attention.


In a later post, Mark quotes Deb on some of the more ancient attributions. In our modern world view, perceiving Aquarius as "Uranian" and therefore wild and perky, we tend to forget that this is a fixed sign -- solid and unalterable. Horoscopic astrology had been going along quite nicely for some 1900 years before the discovery of Uranus. At that time Aquarius was ruled by Saturn. It was cold, windy, and rainy, according to the Greeks. Its most positive quality was that it seemed to have the ability to develop Saturn's more philosophical side (though even this could be a bit morose, as Ficino points out in his constant recommendations that Saturnian intellectuals ought to spend their time walking in bright meadows, seeking sunlight, and eating concoctions of cinnamon and honey to restore their solar joy).

While I admit that I have met individuals with a large Aquarian component who do seem to fit the modern, "Uranian" personality profile of Aquarius, I have met just as many who exemplify the Saturnian side. If you want a superb historical example of an Aquarian with a Saturnian consciousness and appearance, try Abraham Lincoln.

I think it is best not to make snap judgments about Aquarians. Got to check 'em out and see where they're coming from.
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Ed F



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Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Kenneth's experience of many morose Aquarians.

- Ed
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirk,

it seems as though you have attempted to suck all the air out of aquarius and make it very wet! so which will it be - aquarius standing apart, or connecting? air separates while water connects is my simple understanding of the elements as they relate to astrology...

the aquarius symbol of a person carrying water, is not the same as the fish that represent the following sign pisces for example. i believe the focus is on the person, with what they are carrying a 2ndary consideration.. aquarius always seem to come across as ideologues, fairly fixed in their view point.. i associate this with the fixed quality of the '''air''' sign..
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