skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Book III of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
translated by David Pingree
Notes on Dorotheus III: the haylāj, Kadhkhudāh, and terms of life
by Deborah Houlding
Godfather of Modernity: The Alan Leo Legacy Vol. One - Early Astrological Journals 1890-1912, compiled by Philip M Graves
Reviewed by Deborah Houlding
Lilly's Considerations
compiled by D. Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Primary Directions
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 323
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:12 am    Post subject: Primary Directions Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 6:24 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Martin Gansten
Moderator


Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1054
Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:41 am    Post subject: Re: Primary Directions Reply with quote

varuna2 wrote:
1) Is the naibod ascension table found on this site, in a tutorial by Deb, used to Primary Direct every planet/point the same amount for the amount of years and days of life? In other words, when using Primary Directions is every point in the natal chart progressed the same amount of degrees and minutes at any given point in time? From what I understood of the tutorial, all we have to do is add the naibod table to the natal positions and this is the Primary Directed position for the event?

I am not sure which table you are thinking of, as the ones taken from Naibod do not deal with ascensions but with degree/year conversion; but in any case the answer is No: what you describe is not how primary directions are calculated.

Three kinds of ascension are used in classical Ptolemaic directions: right, oblique, and mixed. The example in Deb's article deals with a direction of the ascendant and therefore uses only oblique ascensions. Directing the midheaven (in right ascension) is actually simpler; but all directions involving two points not located exactly on the angles are made in mixed ascensions, which is a more complex procedure.

Because primary directions are not based on motion through the ecliptic, directing the nodes (or retrograde planets) backwards is not correct. Some astrologers using primary directions today do in fact move every point both forwards and backwards, as if the earth rotated in two directions at once, but this has nothing to do with the nodes; it is based on a misunderstanding of the term 'converse motion' which crept in during the 19th century (after the 'great sleep' of astrology in the 18th, when many things were forgotten).
_________________
http://www.martingansten.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 323
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: Primary Directions Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 6:25 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Martin Gansten
Moderator


Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1054
Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: Primary Directions Reply with quote

varuna2 wrote:
If I can bother you to ask one more question: if a planet is exactly square the Ascendant/Descendant axis in longitude below the horizon but not on the IC, is this the nadir and can it be Primary Directed using only right ascension, or do you mean a planet exactly on the MC/IC and Asc/Dsc? If the birthtime is correct there are three planets which are exactly angular, one of them exactly square the Asc/Dsc axis like this, so I should be able to Primary Direct those three planets using only the right ascension, or only the two on the Asc/Dsc and IC/MC angle degrees?

Only the actual MC/IC axis, and planets or points located exactly on this axis, can be directed in right ascension. This is because the apparent rotation of the celestial sphere (actually caused by the rotation of the earth around its axis) moves all planets, etc, towards the meridian at right angles. All points with the same right ascension will reach the meridian at the same time, but they will not rise, set, or pass some intermediate point at the same time.
_________________
http://www.martingansten.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 382

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello varuna2

Re: "Has someone through experience, noticed more accurate timing of events with the true or mean node? The theoretical basis of the true node seems to be an error to my current understanding, since the nodes move in a retrograde direction and are not to move forwards, but maybe the true node should be used(?)"

I use Primary Directions extensively and always with the Mean Node.

Whether this is a recommendation or an indictment, you'll have to be the judge. Wink

Since you are new to Primary Directions (ie. don't have pre-consideration bias), might I suggest that you try the free Astro program. It does Primary Directions using Topocentric houses. It is an older DOS-based program, so you will need a Dos-wrapper such as DosBox to use it on newer machines, but don't be intimidated by this...it is easy to set up.

Re: Direct and Converse

Yes, go ahead and use converse! It can be easily observed that Transits, Secondaries, etc. work equally well as their direct counterparts. It is the same with Primary Directions. Empirical investigation will reveal this statement to be true. Don't allow philosophical arguments to lead you down the wrong path, when a few short moments of experimentation will validate the methodology.

I have a very tightly timed birthchart. It has been rectified 1 min 16 secs from my birth certificate (and newspaper article about my birth) by both myself and Isaac Starkman, arriving at the same answer. Based on 4 out-of-sample major events, this time has been confirmed.

Here are a few examples of converse Primary Directions...

When my Mother died, the Node had by converse Primary Direction moved to conjoin my Ascendant. (2 days from event!)

When my Father died, the MC had by converse Primary Direction moved to conjoin natal Jupiter (sizable inheritance). (Same day as event!)

When the Moon contacted my 5th House cusp by converse Primary Direction, my Son was born. (9 days from event!)

When the Part of Fortune contacted Saturn by converse Primary Direction, my step-Father died. (Same day as event!)

When Jupiter contacted my 3rd cusp (common for retirement/resignation) by converse Primary Direction, I resigned from a job I had 16 years. (2 days from event!)

If you will make sure that your birthtime is absolutely correct and then look at the (Topocentric) Primary Directions for major events in your life, you will find relevant symbolism and tight orbs (less than 0° 11' at event!) with both direct and converse Primary Directions.

My advice is to examine this yourself rather than take anyone's opinion on it. If you look yourself, you will know. If you take someone's opinion, you will only think you know. Wink

Good luck in your explorations!

James
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mike41374



Joined: 10 Apr 2012
Posts: 1

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love your attitude ,strength is very well in your work u have done great job thanks for sharing
_________________
Usmle Step 2
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 323
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: Primary Directions Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 6:25 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 323
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 6:25 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 382

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello varuna2

Interesting message... Wink

Re: "hereby declare Atlantean to be innocent of the 'crimes against humanity' of using the True Node with Primary Directions and other such matters."

I would have to be innocent of that charge, since I use the mean node exclusively. (not because I want to, but because it works) Wink

Re: "Converse: Differing opinions are expected by now, and welcomed, but not comforting in this type of situation."

That's okay...just think of it as time runs in both directions... if that's too simplistic, then how about "the future and the past are holograms"?

Re: "I am assuming neither of us believe any natal chart will work due to astrology being strictly and only subjective divination."

You are correct, I agree. It is because it is more than a little bit objective. Anything with any level of objectivity can't be seen as subjective in the whole.

Re: "The question is which rules and when to apply them."

Find as many systems as you can that give viable charts. The ones that don't, either find out why and fix it or just drop those methods.

So far, the list of reliable ones includes (at least):


[Additionally, all of the above work in converse motion as well.]

Re: "I agree about thinking for oneself."

Bravo! The folly of getting one's opinions from "experts" can be readily seen, for instance in Solar Returns. Visit one forum and you'll be told overwhelmingly that Tropical Solar Returns are the ones that are valid. Visit another forum and you're likely to be told that precession-corrected Solar Returns are the way to go. As both methods demonstrably work, either instruction on the fallacy of the other method; is, in itself, a fallacy. Wink It's even possible to have both opinions forcefully represented on one forum, depending on whom you ask.

Learn as many methods as possible... using your own secure data, separate the chaff from the wheat.

Peace

James
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 323
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 6:26 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1827
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you want to read a philosophical discussion on primary directions check out morins book 22.. i am just reading it now and can tell you, you'll get more then enough to keep ya busy..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 382

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello varuna2

Re: "I posted questions about Primary Directions on this site knowing there are people here who know things about them, therefore the assumption of learning on this forum was already present in the act of posting this thread."

Yes, of course. My point was, having seen observably incorrect things being stated about primary directions, that it is the best idea to take it all with a grain of salt and take your best data and try out the things that you read before really believing any of it. Not related to any receptivity (or possible lack thereof) for that particular "tip", it is still the proper advice to give.

Re: "...if we take, for instance, the ordinary view of the past disappearing and the future not yet existent, then nothing exists."

That doesn't follow. The past could instantly disappear and the future could be (at present) not yet existent and yet this exact moment now can still be completely present and "existing" as it is concurrently observable to be.

Personally, I would say relative to the idea of converse motion, that the most important point isn't a philosophical one; but that it IS deeply "pragmatic", which is that it is empirically observable. Still, being a 9th House Jupiter "type", I must admit that I like contemplating the underpinnings of all things so found it interesting reading... thanks!

Peace

James
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 323
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 6:26 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 323
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 6:27 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 382

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello varuna2

Again, interesting comments...

Re: "However, if this was not my inner nature you would then be encouraging me not to act according to my own inner nature."

Asking that you check the methods to make sure that they do in fact work with your secured data is more like proofreading. Surely, no one could find a philosophical ground for not proofreading something. There is NO down side possible... you might find errors and fix them. What negative could come from it? It's the same here...asking you to take others' ideas, but to test them with your own data is just good practice and what "ought" to happen. In that sense, I can't think that the suggestion in any way could really be against your "nature."

As for authority figures, we have the same opinion. There is no law which I feel is unjust or incorrect, that I won't gladly break it in protest. I love "The Duty of Civil Disobedience" and stand by that principle. If you don't agree with a law or condition, then to act as if it had power, is to give power to it. It is a DUTY to not follow laws that you disagree with, otherwise you are undifferentiated from those who agree with those laws.

As for authority figures in general, I have an Aries Midheaven and Mars square Uranus. All authority figures that I can think of have been challenged at one point or another, from Father to Boss to Policeman to Priest. The reaction is often along the lines of "who is this mortal who challenges my authority?" My reaction is more along the lines of "you may have to try and prove I'm mortal, because my will will outlast your authority."

Re: "For example, suppose I decided to start a cult. Now suppose there were many people who needed an authoritative cult leader and they became my followers. Would it not be because the inner nature of the followers demanded of them to become members of my cult (or any other cult). Would it be beneficial to encourage the cult followers to become independent, contrary to their own nature?"

People that are in a cult are not under their own control, so anything that leads or might lead to their freedom from oppression (even if it feels like heaven to them to be oppressed) would tend to be a good thing.

Re: "Alternatively, would it be helpful to encourage a cult leader to become more passive and submissive and dependent, contrary to their own inner nature?"

If they are a cult leader, then yes, it could very well be helpful. Jim Jones was a psychotic murderer...anything that broke his hold over his "sheep" would be a good thing...no matter what anyone's "natures" specifically are.

Acting contrary to someone's nature is not wrong if it is driven by their true will. I am mostly a shy person, prefer one step removed from the public. Still, at my last work, part of my function was driving around and giving instruction in front of roomfuls of managers. It's not something that I would normally choose...it's not in my nature to do so...but I wanted to do it and so I did do it. It was a great learning/growing experience.

If it's in someone's nature to sit at home, vegetate on the couch and stuff their feelings with junk food, then it can't be evil to suggest getting out of the house and getting some exercise. ie. all our "natures" are not necessarily healthy or good

Now, that being said...don't misconstrue my stance. I am very liberal oriented in terms of individual rights. If there is something that you really want to do (that doesn't hurt innocent people) then by all means, do it! A big part of why we're (all) here is to learn to USE our WILL constructively.

Peace

James
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated