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Ascendant and 12th house ruled by same planet

 
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 392
Location: UK

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Ascendant and 12th house ruled by same planet Reply with quote

Hi all,

Looking at a natal chart which has Aquarius rising and Capricorn on the 12th house cusp. The native has had issues with substance use/addictive behaviour in the past. It seems like the 12th house should have some bearing on the issue. My question is, is it possible (or necessary??) to come up with a planet to rule the 12th house which is separate from the Ascendant ruler? My first guess would be to use the almuten of the 12th cusp which would be Mars I believe (cusp is at 13 Capricorn), since there are no planets in the 12th house and there are no planets in Aquarius.

Thanks!

Keren
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ninotchka7



Joined: 10 Apr 2009
Posts: 56
Location: Washington

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keren,

I understand what you are getting at. It's a problem that few astrologers really discuss; not sure if it's that most are not aware of the issue, or can't verbalize it, or what.

However, it has been written about. I was recently re-reading Book 21 of Astrologia Gallica, where Morin, quoting Cardano, discusses a similar problem, but with planets (how can the Moon rule the mother, wife, health, longevity, morals, etc. all at the same time, when all of these will have different degrees of goodness in the life) instead of houses. Morin answers this by saying: just use house rulerships instead of universal planetary rulerships! Though as you can see, that does not solve the problem 100%. In fact, reading this section of Book 21 prompted me to write an article about this exact problem. When it is completed, I will post the link.

Meanwhile, I would do the following; take what works for you:

1. You can read the triplicity rulers of the 12th and 1st house cusps for different analyses of each house.

2. Instead of looking at Saturn as ruler of the 12th and 1st houses, see if there are planets in either house, and prioritize that as the determining factor instead of the house ruler.

3. Look at the relevant Lots for each issue. The Lot of Longevity vs. the Lot of Imprisonment may be useful, for instance.

4. Observe aspects to the relevant house cusps, if you are using a quadrant system.

5. Look at fixed stars on the relevant house cusps.

Good luck!
Nina
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 392
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Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Nina,

Thanks for your reply. I will check out the triplicity rulers and see what I can find. It is an interesting case since Saturn is placed on the MC. Therefore if Saturn is read as Lord 12 rather than Lord 1 then the chart takes on a very different cast.

I agree, it is a confusing issue which I have not seen addressed specifically anywhere.

Looking forward to reading your article!

Keren
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ninotchka7



Joined: 10 Apr 2009
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Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keren,

It occurred to me that I had not listed the most common approach to this issue, simply because in my mind it is obvious - use almutens of the house cusps. I am sure you know what they are, but for those reading this who do not, almutens are the most influential planet across all five essential dignities of a given zodiacal degree. You will likely end up with a different almuten of the 12th and 1st and can go from there.

Cheers,
Nina
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 946
Location: Delhi

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Olson,_Nancy

This chart of American actress could help.

Saturn is in 10th.
Thankfully, no traditional planet aspects the MC including MC lord Jupiter.
So Saturn in 10 the is unadulterated by other factors.
She got nominated for Oscars, so Saturn is more likely giving results of Aquarius.

In jyotisha. (sidereal)There is a rule that Saturn will give the result of the house where Aquarius. Is located.

PD
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 447

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Nina and Keren,
One of the most difficult tasks in astrology is trying to find one indicator (e.g. a planet) that “represents” a house/sign when delineating a chart. There are seven planets (traditional of course!) and there are 12 houses. Each planet (with the exception of the luminaries) rule two signs by domicile. Using whole sigh houses system, when Aquarius is rising, Saturn rules both the first and the twelfth. When Pisces is rising, Jupiter rules the first and the tenth (and so on and so forth).
There are a number of techniques used by the Hellenistic and Medieval astrologers to nail down the one house that the planet really represents and this could be the domicile ruler that aspects the house or almuten or some other ranking and/or rating techniques. This actually solves only one problem i.e. this might work in practice if ONE house represents ONE topic in life! Let us assume that you have found (by whatever technique) that Saturn is really representing the 12th and some other planet really represents the 1st house. Are we saying that Saturn represents ALL matters governed by the 12th house i.e. beasts (wild animals), beasts of burden, grief, imprisonment, hospitalization, permanent separation via exile, etc.???

Medieval astrologers assign the three triplicity/trigon lords of a house to govern three different areas governed by the house (see Bonatti, Ibnu Ezra, etc.) e.g. the first triplicity/trigon lord of the seventh house governs spouse, the second, open enemies and the third, associates. This is also not without problems because there are some houses that have more than just three areas which they govern! Furthermore, what do we do with the domicile ruler of the house itself (if it is not one of the three triplicity/trigon lords?)! Which areas of life does the domicile lord govern then?

Hellenistic and Medieval astrologers use Lots (aka Arabic parts) to narrow down the delineation. Now, a Lot is more interesting because it does represent only one specific area of life and hence, one part of the problem is avoided (i.e. the problem of not knowing which part of life it really represents as the case with a house). We still have the problem of nailing down one planet that is responsible for the rulership of the Lot (and hence, the specific area governed by the lot). Perhaps, the almuten method or other ranking and/or rating methods can be of use here in order to find one planet (that governs the lot) and hence, one planet that governs the area of life that the lot specifically governs. BUT this gives us another problem! If a lot can be used to predict a very specific area or topic of life, why do we want to even consider a house associated with the same area of life? An example: if the lot of father can be used to delineate the father of the native, why bother looking into the 4th house (a house that represents father and a bunch of other things as well!!!).

I will make another post on my approach (though not perfect!) of delineation later!
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Continuing from the previous post…

When we read the delineation materials from the ancient and traditional texts, we quickly realize that the ancients seem to draw their delineation materials from four different “planes” viz. the fixed stars, the planets, the houses and the lots.

The fixed stars are almost never used on its own. They are combined with the location via horizon (rising and setting) or meridian (culminating). They are also combined with the planets via paran relationships e.g. rising/setting/culminating/anti-culminating with another planet that is also rising, setting, culminating or anti-culminating. The fixed stars are also never used as primary significators. As an example, no fixed star is the significator of wealth though if a significator of wealth is connected to a star of a high magnitude that is somehow wealth giving, there is abundance wealth, etc. Similarly, if a very negative star is connected to the first house via rising, the native’s life will mirror the signification of the fixed star. Observe that the primary significator here is the first house (life) and the significations of the fixed star are used as predicate or attributes to life (in other words it adds its signification to the primary significator).

The primary significators of anything in a chart are extracted from the other three planes viz. the planets, the houses and the lots. When a planet (and only the planet) is used a significator, it is called universal or general significator e.g. Jupiter is the significator of wealth (substance) and children, Venus of unions, Sun (day chart) of father, etc. A moment’s reflection will tell us that predictions based on only universal significators are not going to work simply because they are not specific enough (they are after all universal and not specific significators!). Morin simply discarded the use of universal significators for this very reason.

When a house (or a lot) is used as a significator, it is called accidental significator. The house (or lot) is the significator plus a planet associated with the house or lot. This “associated” planet could be the planet in the house (or in the same sign as the lot) or the domicile or other ruler(s) of the house or lot. Morin uses the houses (with planets in the houses and the lord of the houses) as specific significators. He does not use lots (he wrongly believes that the lots together with the terms, were the fantastic creations of the Arabs). I cannot but wonder that if he were to live during the enlightenment period, he would have ridiculed astrology altogether for still adhering to the Ptolemaic geocentric model of the universe.

It is natural to narrow down the “significator” of a house to only one planet but at the same time specific to the house (and not another house). This spawned many methods:

1) Almuten method. Find the planet that has the greatest say of a house. There are a few variations e.g. whether equal or unequal weighting of the rulers, and whether other non-rulers should be included (like planets in the house or aspect the house but not ruling the house in any manner or form). I must say that in practice (my practice that is!), the almuten methods simply do not work.

2) Ranking plus aspect method; One example is the determination (start with domicile ruler, if it aspects the house or in the house, take him, if not, we move to the exalted ruler, and so on and so forth). Usually this method has a default i.e. if a planet cannot be found, we simply revert to the domicile lord (whether it aspects or not). Some horary and consultant astrologers (see MashaAllah) actually do this!

3)Other methods?

As I mentioned before, these methods might work if one house represents one area of life. Alas, one house can represent many areas of life e.g. if you find that Saturn is the planet that is specific to the fifth house by whatever methods, does it really govern children or honors or pleasures or God knows what else! However, these methods might work on Lots because one Lot governs one specific area of life. Hence, a planet that is specific to one Lot is, by extension, also specific to one area of life. This is also not without problem for there are Lots of Lots! Which Lot to use in the first place? As an example, there are many Lots of Marriage/Wedding – which to use? Actually, to be fair, there are ways of differentiating the different lots through the formulae (e.g. one lot of marriage refers to contractual union and another is probably on the happiness of union, etc.).

Just to complete the discussion, some medieval astrologers use the three triplicity/trigon lords of a house to represent different areas of life governed by that house. As I mentioned earlier, this gives other problems as well e.g. what about other areas not covered by the three areas governed by the triplicity/trigon lords and which area of life does the domicile lord govern if it is not one of the three triplicity/trigon lords?

I personally think that we should not read the chart the way a cookbook reads a chart (where they simply go round the circle and start delineating the chart). Example: “Aha, you have Sun in the 6th house in Aries opposed closely by Saturn which means bla bla bla” or “The ruler of the fifth is conjunct the ruler of the 12th in the 12th and this means that your child will die in exile (or something less dramatic)”. This method is “good” for teaching beginners in astrology to sharpen their skills in delineating charts by combining different factors but is not the best way of delineating a chart to clients (though a lot of interpretation materials can be gleaned using this method).

I think we should start with a topic in mind before looking into the chart to find the relevant significators associated with the topic that is under consideration. This is because the same indicators can mean different things under different topics. A significator of wealth in its own domicile is one indication of good wealth because the significator is in “high resources”. A significator of relationship in its own domicile is not so good because the native seems to be happier “alone in its own house” unless there is another planet there or …

If we go round the zodiac, we tend to discuss many topics at the same time and this will definitely create inconsistent delineation later (just like a cook book interpretation does) simply because there are overlaps of meanings across the houses, planets and/or lots. If we delineate according to topics, we will exhaust all significators related to the topic and hence, consistency is guaranteed (well, sort of!). In fact, this is done all the time in horary astrology! We do not go around the zodiac willy-nilly and delineate everything. We start with a topic at hand and then find the related significators and interpret those only. The difference between horary and natal is that one horary is for one query only whereas many “queries” can be made with one natal chart. Many ancient texts are also presented “topically”!

So, when a student mine asked me “What does it mean when I have Jupiter (a good planet) in Gemini (detriment) and retrograde in the first house? Does it mean that my life is …”. I told him that it does not mean anything unless you specify the topic. If we are discussing about your overall life, then it means … because any planet in the first house says something about life but under the topic of wealth it might not say anything about wealth (even though Jupiter is the universal ruler of wealth) because it does not aspect the second house or the Lot of Fortune!

Once, we have secured the topic to be delineated, we then move to the various related significators. There are a few areas of life where comprehensive specific algorithms/techniques have been outlined by the ancient and traditional astrologers. These algorithms were created to actually point us to the specific methods and significators of the topic at hand. These topics include lifespan, health and illness, parents, siblings and children, (i.e. family matters), character and disposition, eminence and prominence, profession (magisterium), wealth and union(s).

All of these topics would include all of the three realms of significations (planet, house and lot) for them to be exhaustive. Let us look at a few of the topics as examples. In the topic of lifespan, the chart must be identified whether it belongs to the first, second, third or fourth differentia. If it belongs to the fourth differentia, a hyleg is then ascertained through a particular technique and then directed to the horizon or to the rays of malefics (if you’re using Ptolemy’s method) or you then ascertain the alchocoden (if you are following the Persians). Who are the candidates of the hyleg? They are the luminaries especially the main luminary (planet realm), the ascendant (house realm) and Lot of Fortune (Lot realm). Well, there is also the pre-natal lunation but this is also planet realm as it is a place where the luminaries made special connection (new or full moon before birth). In the topic of unions, we would be looking at Venus and/or Mars (planet realm), the seventh house (house realm) and the Lot of Marriage (Lot realm). In the topic of profession, we look to Mars, Venus and Mercury (planet realm) and their relationship with Sun and Moon, the tenth house (house realm) and the Lot of Work (see Rhetorius). Similar steps are made for the other topics!

Wait a minute! How do we actually delineate a topic with different candidate significators? Some astrologers (like Omar of Tiberias and Johannes Schoenner) simply combines the many significators using mathematical indexing method and get one planet that represents a “super” significator that represents all the candidate significators together – the concept of “composite almuten”. Other astrologers seem to use other rating or ranking techniques in order to discern THE significator from among the candidate significators. Most of the time, the significators from the house realm seem to get more “weighting”. For example, Morin simply uses the planet in the related house or the house lord(s).

For me, I use all three significators from the three different realms with distinctions because the three realms represent something different in a chart. The universal significators from the planet realm are usually used for those whose lives are more connected to the masses. Since there are very few natives whose lives are connected to the masses (there are only few of us who get to be kings, leaders, tyrants, Bill Gates, celebrities, etc.), predictions from the universal significators DO NOT WORK for us! In fact, in ancient times, the natal charts of the Kings are used for mundane prediction. Why? Because a King is connected to the masses and the destiny of the King cannot be separated from the destiny of the nation! Does this mean that we do not carry “a great destiny in us”? Oh yes we do. It’s just that our destiny (no matter how great) is not intertwined with the destiny of the nation. Remember the mourning of Calpurnia, “When beggars die there are no comets seen; the heavens themselves blaze forth the death of princes” – well actually Shakespeare said this but it does convey the message!

Accidental significators from the house and Lot realms are more specific and they give specific delineations to all natives; kings and beggars alike (though in different proportion and measure!). Significators from house realm show more of how the native “work things out” related to the topic at hand. Significators from Lot realm show how the topic comes to the native via fortunes and fortuitous turn of events. Example: significator of wealth includes Jupiter (planet realm), the second house and its related lord (house realm) and Lot of Fortune. How the native makes money and his way of dealing with money/wealth are gleaned from the second house, planets in it as well as the second lord. How the native gets money through luck and fortuitous turn of events are extracted from the Lot of Fortune, its Lord and planets in the same sign with Lot of Fortune (ceteris paribus).
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astrojin



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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Last edited by astrojin on Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:38 am; edited 2 times in total
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astrojin



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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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James E.



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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrojin, thank you for sharing your knowledge and understanding on this matter Thumbs up
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks astrojin!

Interesting what you said about the nativity of the king being used to describe the fate of tribes/nations!

It's good to hear what does and doesn't work for you in practise. It's one thing to have all these shiny theories but doesn't help much when we come to deal with a real chart.

Having thought some more about the issue, I see that other significators must come into play besides the 12th house itself. For example we have debilitated Venus which implies certain tendencies regarding physical desires and the management thereof. The water signs are emphasized in the chart while the earth signs are empty, implying sensitivity/emotionality which is not well grounded. I realise this is not strictly traditional astrology, more depth psychology.

I have been thinking of looking at the chart as more of a horary, as you suggest, with the question in mind of this particular area of life. So in that case one could end up with a list of testimonies similar to the ones we draw up for a horary, which as you describe contains a mixture of factors from fixed stars, house rulers and universal significators. Looking at the whole chart in light of a certain issue makes more sense than just picking out one or two placements.

As to what Saturn represents, it is my sense that he is actually influential in the affairs of the house he is placed in (bang on the MC). Directions and transits to Saturn have not produced 12th house effects, unless one counts (metaphorical) death by overwork. Perhaps emplacement is more powerful than house rulership after all. Although having said that, perhaps death by overwork is a perfect blending of the meaning of the 12th and 10th houses!

Keren
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi keren,

someone else mentioned upstream about reading morins book 21 which is something i also did fairly recently.. as i recall having a planet in the 12th would be a useful indicator if there was a planet in the 12th.. you mention a few things about the chart, but i can't find where you have shared a chart..

astrojin

thanks for all the great insightful posts..
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