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Sun conjunct moon in solar return
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san



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
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Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Sun conjunct moon in solar return Reply with quote

Solar return Moon in Capricorn conjunct Sun and Mercury in solar return 4th house.

I read in a old astrology book that this aspect could predict the death of the one of the parents. Did anyone expirience the year like this? I am really worry and a little bit affraid of loosing them Sad

What does it mean for a year with this conjunction?
Sun is the lord of 11th solar house and 4th natal house. Moon is lord of 10th solar house and 2&3 natal house.

If 10-4th house represent parents..then..? Shocked
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I do think death can be seen with certain predictive methods, this isn't one of them. Way back when I was taught the so called "rule of three: " If you see something in a chart once make note of it, if you see the same thing another way, think it, and if you see it a third time another way, say it." I doubt this has much validity, but it does teach caution.

Aphorisms have value, but they should all come with a warning label that adds the words "all other things being equal," to the end of each one. All other things are rarely if ever equal, so the aphorism should be taken as an indication or a red flag, not an absolute certainty.
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Ile



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Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi SAN,

Can you please give the reference of the thing that Sun and Moon conjunct in Solar Return brings death to one of the parents?
I have it too this year so it would be very good to know the source of the saying and how much believable is.

I agree with the point Tom made. I also use the 3 indicators 'rule'.
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose what follows can be of questionable taste, but it is astrology so here goes: If anyone is interested in predicting death the absolute best place to learn how to do it is John Worsdale's Celestial Philosophy.

Worsdale used a variety of techniques to show a piling up of testimonies (similar to the idea behind the 3 indications rule). They had to occur close together, make astrological sense, and of course be nasty. Worsdale is a bit sadistic about the whole thing, but the astrology is first rate. Reproductions of the book can be found online. Here's one place:


http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_adv_b/?field-publisher=Kessinger+Publishing&search-alias=stripbooks&unfiltered=1&tag=kessingerpubl-20&tag_value=kessingerpubl-20&field-keywords=Celestial+Philosophy&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=54&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=15
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

free copy of the book tom mentions - 4th link down
https://docs.google.com/#folders/0B2i5q4X9yT_uYjE4NDVjYmYtNTRmMC00MDM5LWEzMTQtYjJjMGU5MDRmNmRl
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Ile



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Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks James Smile
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
While I do think death can be seen with certain predictive methods, this isn't one of them.


Hi Tom,

This isn't a topic I have ever looked at. Although I understand it was first business when looking at a chart in the medieval period. So what methods do you think are accurate? I assume following Worsdale primary directions is one of them?

Mark
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Worsdale's system of looking for testimonies that all occur about the same time and they're all nasty. Yes he used primary directions to great effect but he combined them with solar returns, secondary progressions, and transits. He also used hyleg.

Here are some of his remarks concerning the drowning death of one Joseph Kent, born June 6 1817, 11:30 PM probably Local Apparent time. Use Lincoln, UK. You should get an ASC of about 8 Aquarius 27.

First he gives an extensive table of celestial events. The child died at 7 years 1 month and 6 days of age. In the table between 6 years 10 months and 7 years 0 months he lists (Moon is hyleg):

Sun to the sextile of Mars in mundo, converse directions
Moon to the parallel of Mars in Zodiac (primary direction in zodiac)
Moon to the body of Saturn in zodiac converse motion
Sun to the quintile of Mars in the Zodiac

Then he says (and this is just partial:


Quote:
... the directions that destroyed life (which shewed (sic) their effects at the time of death) were the Moon hyleg to the body of Saturn, by converse motion, and also the parallel declination of Mars, and body of that malefic in the zodiac, and mundo, ... and though the giver of life applied to the sextile of Venus, and trine of Jupiter, yet these applications could not produce an important assistance because both benefics were afflicted in the nativity, ...

By secondary motion the Sun was in conjunction with Mercury and the Moon, the giver of life, had nearly arrived at the place of the Sun in the Nativity and was applying to the square of her (I believe he means the Moon) radical positions, and likewise to the rays of Mars the chief mortal promittor in the Geniture ...


Worsdale doesn't look for "signatures" that apply in each chart. Rather he looks at the chart and puts everything together. He uses whatever is at hand, parallels, primaries, secondaries, transits, returns etc. To him astrology is not just a few techniques, but everything the astrologer has at his disposal and when all these things occur at or near the same time, events happen. In Worsdale's case the event he is most interested in, in this work, is death. We would have to research other events in the life, preferably more pleasant, to see how well all of this effort pays off.

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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
I like Worsdale's system of looking for testimonies that all occur about the same time and they're all nasty. Yes he used primary directions to great effect but he combined them with solar returns, secondary progressions, and transits. He also used hyleg.

To clarify, the hyleg was the centre of Worsdale's attention in predicting death. Worsdale was very much a follower of Placidus, which meant that he viewed primary directions as the main technique, with secondary directions, progressions (these are two different techniques) and transits serving only to back up, modify, accelerate or delay the effects of primary directions.

I don't recall seeing Worsdale use revolutions (solar returns) to any great extent -- do you have a reference for that, Tom? I do know that Placidus had very little regard for revolutions; it dismayed Morin greatly. Wink
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't recall seeing Worsdale use revolutions (solar returns) to any great extent --


I said that he used them and I recall seeing them used in Celestial Philosophy. Whether or not he used them to any great extent is a value judgment. It's Easter diner time so I can't look now.

What is the difference between secondary directions and progressions?

If I left anything out of my post it is this: one has to work with Worsdale, not simply read him and each example he gives neds to be pulled apart to gain maximum information from it. I assumed secondaries were progressions. My bad if it isn't true.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
I said that he used them and I recall seeing them used in Celestial Philosophy. Whether or not he used them to any great extent is a value judgment.

It's rather a quantitative statement, or at least that was how I meant it. I went back and looked (actually, I made a searchable pdf and had the computer look), and you are right: Worsdale often does mention revolutions. He does so in the manner of Placidus, however, which is to say that he is mainly concerned with the transits on the birthday, not with reading the chart of the revolution in full (although once or twice he makes a fleeting reference to the angles).

Quote:
What is the difference between secondary directions and progressions?

I'll be lazy and quote myself, if you don't mind; this is from my Primary Directions:

Quote:
Having rejected both profections and, for all practical purposes, revolutions, Placidus was in need of another auxiliary technique. As discussed in Chapter 2, he found it in his secondary directions, familiar to most present-day astrologers as (secondary) progressions and calculated by the simple formula ‘a day for a year’. The technique as applied by its inventor, however, was rather different from what is generally practised today. Placidus was clear that the secondary directions were a mere supplement to the primary, and concerned only those Ptolemaic significators which possessed secondary motion – that is to say, the Sun and Moon:

Quote:
[W]e must observe, when the luminaries are posited in any aspect of the stars [i.e., planets]; for if with the fortunes, they conduce to happiness and good health; if with the unfortunate, and from an hostile ray or parallel of declination, they portend misery and distress in those years which depend on those days these aspects happen on.

Only in relatively rare cases could another planet be admitted to the dignity of hyleg or significator of life, and its secondary directions examined.

Placidus also invented another technique, which he called progressions, based on the equation ‘a synodic month for a year’. Requiring slightly more calculation than secondary directions, these progressions seem to have disappeared during the great simplification process of the late 19th and early 20th century, although a similar technique was invented some fifty years later by German astrologer E. H. Troinski, who called it tertiary directions.

So when Worsdale speaks of secondary directions, he means what modern astrologers call secondary progressions (though considerably more circumscribed); when he speaks of progressions, he means a different technique. Worsdale seems to have got all this from Placidus by way of Partridge.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

martin, thanks for the informative post.

my understanding is that ‘a synodic month for a year’ is what minor progressions are in solar fire astro program.. r.c. davison talks about them in his book 'the technique of prediction' as well..
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
although a similar technique was invented some fifty years later by German astrologer E. H. Troinski, who called it tertiary directions.


Hi Martin,

I appreciate you actually meant minor directions here as James already stated. Although some people do describe this kind of progression as a type of tertiary progressions:

http://wiki.astro.com/astrowiki/en/Tertiary_Progression

In this method progressing the radix one lunar month represents one year of life. However, wasn't the lunar progression method of Placidus and Troinski slightly different? I cant lay my hands on your book just now but I seem to recall a footnote where you mentioned the time period of one method was based on the lunar synodic cycle and the other based on a different period. Was this its zodiacal return?

Also could you please give the reference where Partridge mentions progressions or minor returns? I assume its somewhere in his Ptolemy/Placidus inspired Opus Reformatum?

Mark
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
I appreciate you actually meant minor directions here as James already stated.

What I said was just that Troinski called 'his' technique tertiary directions. This is not the exact technique that Placidus called progressions, but a similar one; the Placidean one may well be known today as minor progressions -- I'm sure you would know that better than I. Placidus' method was based on the synodic month, Troinski's on the tropical month.

Quote:
Also could you please give the reference where Partridge mentions progressions or minor returns? I assume its somewhere in his Ptolemy/Placidus inspired Opus Reformatum?

Yes, it would be. I'll see if I can find a reference or two.
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Stellarium



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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

New or full moons in solar return usually refer to significant life changes, for example the loss of a job, retirement, end of a period of study and also more positive changes depending on the tenor of the chart (including natal chart) and time lords, directions etc.

One should not predict death of parents or anyone based only on Solar Return.

I was bored a few months ago and googled my birthdate to see what kind of lives/careers people born on the same day as me had. The purpose of this brief study was basically to see if there were common trends based on major (tight) aspects / sign positions in operation on the day of birth. There were quite a large number of sportspeople (ice hockey players, NFL, etc) probably related to a tight Sun-Mars square. Then I came across a US soldier who had died in action in Afghanistan in 2011. The Solar Return for our birthday contained a full Moon (don't know his exact time of birth but allowing an orb of 12-13 degrees for a new Moon would make it operative for most of the day) with both lights afflicted by Mars. I did get a painful foot injury in 2011 but the significant life change for me was graduation and conclusion of my studies.

The point is that there is no 'one size fits all' delineation of a Solar Return and a lot of factors have to be considered.
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