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Lilly's Considerations
compiled by D. Houlding
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100 years since the Titanic
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:36 am    Post subject: 100 years since the Titanic Reply with quote

100 years since the Titanic

On April 15. 2012, 100 years will have passed since the Titanic sank. Upon that occasion I fetched out my work on the accident as it was submitted as a part of lesson 10 in Olivia Barclay's original Q.H.P. course in Classical Astrology (Qualifying Course in Horary Astrology) in 1985 and reprinted it at astronor.com. People might enjoy the inclusion of Olivia's remarks that were scribbled onto my papers in red ink before returned. Her comments used to include amusing, yet very educative disputes with other well know astrologers. That is how we progressed during the revival of Classical Astrology that occurred in the 80's. Smile

Here is the Collision chart:



One of the point that later impressed me was the fact the Vindemiatrix was culminating in the South of this chart, that could indicate 'A Table with only 3 legs', fatal relationships or 'Worlds in collision'.

For the full article: astronor
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good stuff. Thanks for posting. I was fascinated with the (incorrect) references to the definition of peregrine and even void of course. Also Andrew, you said that you had "seen Lilly" use planets void of course. There is no citation probably because you didn't yet have a copy of CA. 1985 was the original publication date of the Regulus edition. We've come such a long way since then and are so fortunate to have so much.

Thanks again for posting.
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Tom. Smile

I wondered about including the (incorrect) references and Olivia's comments, but then I really wanted to capture the Spirit of it all, because it says something about how we were working. Everything was valuable (at least in retrospect), whether right or wrong, but we were having to sort it all out. So I would consider (almost) everything at that time as an important contribution.

Lilly makes reference to a case 'if the Lord of the 3rd were VOC' on page 190 of Christian Astrology (Regulus, 1985 edition), and on page 316 he says that 'if the Lord of the 7th were VOC'. Now it is difficult to know whether he is referring to the Moon being the ruler of these houses, but in my mind he would have referred to her, the Moon, as the Lady of the house - and not as the Lord. I don't have any other notes at hand at the present. I swished the old papers out of my files rather at haste after coming back from a short vacation.

I will sort out who published the article, but I recently reorganized my office and books shelf so it is taking some time to find some of the older work. If you had some more comments on what you were referring to on the Void of Course, I'm interested.
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew Bevan wrote:
Quote:
If you had some more comments on what you were referring to on the Void of Course, I'm interested.


Tom can obviously reply for himself but one thing that strikes me is how our understanding of the VOC Moon has changed. I understand that Olivia Barclay taught all her students that Lilly and his contemporaries didn't use out of sign aspects. The pioneering research of Sue Ward into Lilly's actual chart examples showed this assumption was wrong. Lilly did indeed use of out of sign aspects based on moeity orbs. Hence a moon late in sign was not necessarily VOC at all. For example in the collision chart in your article the Moon is applying across the sign boundary to Venus. Later research by Maurice McCann demonstrated this was the mainstream view in 17th century English astrology.

Thanks for this thread. Very topical and interesting charts.

Mark
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two things regarding your comments, Mark. The first is regarding something I came across while flicking through my notes on Lilly. On page 440 of CA he writes that the Moon separating from Venus in the eight went to vacua cursus (Void of Course) but then afterwards applied to the square of Mars. The diagram on pg 439 shows the Moon 13LI37 separating from Venus at 9AR16 with Mars at 25CN40. Now what is this all about?

The other is my personal take on the VOC where the Moon makes an application that is perfected after the Moon has entered the next sign. You might recall this one, but I will repeat it for the sake of the discussion. We don't have to discuss it, but some people might want to share in my opinion. The first is that the planet the VOC Moon applies to must be within the first 3 degrees of that sign. If this is not the case, the planet is too deeply woven into the matters of that sign and beyond reach. In the collision chart Venus is in the 4th degree of Aries, she is no longer on the cusp of the sign and there is no longer a relevant reference. It is like if you move from one place to another, you only hold onto the past for so long. All over the years, and our family emigrated from the UK in 1969 when I was 6 years old, I have always held onto by British Citizenship. At about the age of 20 I looked into the opportunity of studying in England. At this time they would no longer consider me as a UK-citizen, even though my grandparents, uncles and aunts still lived in the Midlands area. I would be considered as an 'overseas student'. Loyalties to the past only last for so long until something else takes priority.

The other thing that is if the Moon does apply by asepct to a planet in the first 3 degrees of another sign, then the Moon may be saved from VOC, but it is still like an unconditional promise. It shows a matter of intent, things that we can do when you get here, everything else being equal.

I understand that there are different opinions on this. It is just an opportunity for me to share my perspective. And then we move on. Natally, I have the Moon 27AQ56 on my I.C. with Uranus 4VI15 and Mercury 5VI02. Mercury and Uranus do not save the Moon from being Void of Course. I even had a landlord whose name was 'Vocaty'. Smile
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granny_skot



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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

do we have a launch chart? The sinking should be indicated in that chart as well, Just wondering, thanks, Granny
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is most certainly the first chart, if you follow the link provided: (Link)

The Launch Chart



No problem in including the chart here, having noted your interest.
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Astraea



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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those interested in Titanic-related charts, an astrologer named Eileen Grimes has devoted her career to amassing the relevant data. She has written a book about her findings, available at Amazon and through her website, http://www.titanicastrology.com/bookandaudio.html

As a Titanic buff, I bought her book when it first appeared and was not impressed by either the text or her methods - but it's a valuable resource for timed stages and events in the saga.
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granny_skot



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Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew Thanks!

Note the Sun is on Angle but no fortunes on any of the other angles at launch, also Mars in 7th, not on angle, but in the angular house. Also Saturn in Taurus, in 7th suggests trouble in the bow, below sea line.

the moon in cancer in 11, possibly why ANY survived, it was a nasty collision in a bad location at sea. And their refuge, or safety being small boats makes cancer an interesting location.

again looking at aphorisms, "mars afflicting the chart suggests great danger and damage to the ship. If it afflicts the rulers of the angles or the dispositor of the moon, there may be attacks from enemies or quarreling, controversy or blood shed among the sailors, especially if an infortune is placed in those signs which indicate the upper part of the ship."

Mars and Jupiter are in Mutual reception, I would not have thought that afflicting? Jupiter is even in Mars Terms and face.

Mars is semi square Saturn and Square Pluto,
and Jupiter is in Opposition to Saturn, there may be the issue, as Saturn is indicative of damabe below sea line and is in opposition of a ruler of an angular house.

"The infortunes in a sign that indicates the bottom of the ship suggests a bad leak, with danger of breaking up or drowning. "

One aphorism that does not seem to hold true for this journey
"Most significators above the horizon, the ship will stay afloat; most below threatens drowning, especially in the 4th house. "

Mercury being the significator for both 1 and 10, and being opposed to Jupiter, slightly past the opposition, but still, pretty much opposed to Jupiter can not be a good thing! You know they didn't have to launch that day, they could have waited a day or two for launch, what were they thinking?? anyway....

I"m sure there is much more, but I think there is enough there in the aphorisms to say its end is represented in its launch...
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew Bevan wrote:
Quote:
Two things regarding your comments, Mark. The first is regarding something I came across while flicking through my notes on Lilly. On page 440 of CA he writes that the Moon separating from Venus in the eight went to vacua cursus (Void of Course) but then afterwards applied to the square of Mars. The diagram on pg 439 shows the Moon 13LI37 separating from Venus at 9AR16 with Mars at 25CN40. Now what is this all about?


Basically Lilly considered that the Moon could be temporarily ''void'' anywhere in a sign if certain conditions of moeity orb were not met by aspectual contact.

These can occur when the Moon is within orb of a previous aspect, but where there is an inability to carry forward the influence of the last aspected planet to the next. Lilly appears to have considered the Moon as effectively 'void of course' if one of three conditions were present:

1 The Moon is fully separated (ie, out of orb) of its last aspectual contact and not yet within orb of its next aspectual contact.

2 The Moon is still within orb of its last aspectual contact but not yet within orb of its next aspectual contact. This is shown in the example you gave where the Moon is still aspecting Venus by a separating opposition but not yet within the moeity orb of the square to Mars. Looking at Lilly's orbs table the Moon has a 12.30 orb and Mars 7.30. The half or moeity orb is therefore 10 degrees. Hence the Moon is just outside the moeity orb of Mars for another 2 in the example you give making it temporarily ''void'' according to Lilly.

3 The Moon is within orb of its next aspect but it has already fully separated from its last aspectual contact. This is probably the most counter-intutive notion when we first confront it. The Moon is applying in orb so how can it be void?

The idea is that the Moon is the transmitter of other planets energies in terms of its last and future aspectual contact. Without this it has no energy to carry forward. Research by Deborah Houlding has demonstrated 9 different horary charts where Lilly utilises the third definition of the Moon being Void.

Deborah Houlding has commented:

Quote:
The second and third definitions are correct according to Lilly's perspective, but they do not describe an empty, powerless Moon which is devoid of all significance; nor do they suggest that the chart cannot be read. They relate to either a recent or upcoming period of inactivity/communication breakdown, and describe periods were there is a potential interruption in the development of the situation.


Deborah Houlding explains this all much better than I ever could so I strongly recommend this article by her which sets out the topic very clearly:

The Moon as Transmitter of Influences:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/moon2.html

Andrew Bevan wrote:
Quote:
The other is my personal take on the VOC where the Moon makes an application that is perfected after the Moon has entered the next sign. You might recall this one, but I will repeat it for the sake of the discussion. We don't have to discuss it, but some people might want to share in my opinion. The first is that the planet the VOC Moon applies to must be within the first 3 degrees of that sign. If this is not the case, the planet is too deeply woven into the matters of that sign and beyond reach.


Your approach to VOC is interesting. I am wondering how you developed this notion? It reminds me a bit of the Hellenistic approach to planets (not the Moon itself). Hellenistic astrologers allowed planets a 3 degree orb which could operate in conjunctions across the sign boundary. They also saw 3 degrees as the effective orb of activity of an aspect by planets.

However, the Luminaries had much wider orbs (Moon-12, and Sun 15). Indeed the hellenistic definition of VOC appears radically different and much rarer as the Moon had to be lacking any aspectual contact within 30 degrees!

My own approach still utilises orbs across the sign boundary but I now personally prefer fixed orbs rather than moeity orbs which were quite a late notion. Fixed orbs bring up the interesting dynamic where one luminary or planet can be in orb of another planet but that planet may not be within its own orb of influence to aspect that planet in return.

Mark
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Your approach to VOC is interesting. I am wondering how you developed this notion?

From working with the exaltation degrees of the planets, the Moon is exalted 3 Taurus and Venus is exalted 27 Pisces. This is where these planets are at ease, at rest and secured. However, Mars at 28 Capricorn is in a case of aggitation and restlessness as he is already leaning into the next. Both cases have to do with relation to the sign boundary. A planet within 7 degrees of the Sun but in the neighbouring sign is not counted as combust, but only as under the sun's beams. This is because the sign boundary has a separative or 'protective' quality. The sign boundary muffles things up as the two signs are on a different frequency. If it were a question of light, the light gets bent or filtered away in the next sign. The 3 degree orb is the standard, yet a planet within 2 degrees of the Sun or the opposition of the Sun is in a state of total destruction. This rule may be converted to sign boundaries. Rules regarding aspects and orbs change as soon as there is a sign boundary involved. It's a boarder line. Different rules, different language. Permits are restricted. But there may be a zone where both currencies are recognized and accepted.

The subject is interesting but non-topical and it would be fair to drop it here. Interesting that the Moon in 25CP is moving in the middle of the oppsition between the Sun at 24 AR and Saturn at 27 LI at this present time, both the latter being in the sign of their exaltation but the moon being in the sign of conflicting systems.
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew Bevan wrote:
Quote:
A planet within 7 degrees of the Sun but in the neighbouring sign is not counted as combust, but only as under the sun's beams. This is because the sign boundary has a separative or 'protective' quality. The sign boundary muffles things up as the two signs are on a different frequency.


Well that Lilly's way of seeing it but it never made any sense to me that combustion fails to operate across signs. Being under the beams relates back to a quite basic astronomical reality that planets are literally hidden from view in close proximity to the Sun. It seems that the idea got a bit muddled in medieval astrology. The ancient astrologers who developed the actual notion of 'under the beams' never proposed that it stopped operating at the sign boundary. However, they did suggest that the effects of combustion could be mitigated by planets being in a dignity such as domicile, exaltation or term rulership.

Andrew Bevan wrote:
Quote:
Rules regarding aspects and orbs change as soon as there is a sign boundary involved. It's a border line. Different rules, different language.


I haven't seen any traditional authority saying that. Unless of course you are going to argue out of sign aspects are not possible full stop. That is certainly a position and some sources like Sahl and Bonatti do seem to suggest that for aspects. However, if out of sign aspects are used all the authorities I have read applied the same orbs not different ones as you seem to be suggesting. If you have any sources on this I would be interested.

Anyway, this is another topic so I will stop there. We can follow this up by PM or maybe open a separate thread on the traditional forum where this discussion really belongs.

Mark
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daz madrigal



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Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
One of the point that later impressed me was the fact the Vindemiatrix was culminating in the South of this chart, that could indicate 'A Table with only 3 legs', fatal relationships or 'Worlds in collision'.


You would expect malevolent fixed stars to congregate around this Greek tragedy but the fact is there are precious few to mention. Yes Vindemiatrix is culminating - amidst many others - however there is nothing particularly special about this as most of us would have more fixed stars conjunct our own planets & angles compared to this 'historic event'. Surely that is cause for concern.

In contrast the Sabian symbols work to perfection..take mercury for example..

Quote:
(ARIES 26): A MAN POSSESSED OF MORE GIFTS THAN HE CAN HOLD.

KEYNOTE: Obsession by potentiality.

The mind which finds itself confronted with a totally unfamiliar and as yet unexperienced type of potency finds it difficult at first to adjust to its new world of perception and possibilities of action. He may rush ahead excitedly and lose his bearings. He should try to reach a state of calm watchfulness, and to learn that at this level too there are limits and restrictions, i.e. laws expressing this new type of "order."

This is the first stage of the sixth five-fold sequence of cyclic phases. This entire sequence of symbols shows us that man at this evolutionary station has to move carefully in his new realm, for his consciousness is not yet fully able to operate in it, except with closely defined limits. It is a symbol of WARNING a warning against undertaking more than it is as yet safe and sound to attempt.



Rudhyar wrote these words pertaining to natal charts but just move it onto the mundane level and it explains the situation perfectly. It is time for everyone to open their eyes beyond hidebound tradition and except that the old ways whilst still relevant are limited in scope. I have no doubt that a quick glance at the harmonics for this chart will bring this tragedy into true focus with a clarity beyond fixed stars, qualities, debilities etc.


Greg
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vindemiatrix 8LI44 in 1912.
Source: Ebertin

Fixed stars are considered particularly significant in mundane events.
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daz madrigal



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Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Legend: Vindemiatrix, or as it was originally called, Vindemiator, the Gatherer of Grapes, represents Ampelos, the son of a satyr and a nymph.

On the MC or on the Ascendant this star with its Saturn-Mercury nature is said to help mental concentration and to promote the type of native who engages for architects and businessmen. Tied up with Mars, it results in increased power of thought, tending sometimes to sarcasm and polemics.


It doesn't seem to have a conclusive association with drowning, misfortune or even the Sea. It just seems slightly tenuous to me.

I would say that Sabik conjunct the Asc is slightly more convincing as it nomenclature as 'the preceding one' & 'Unseen danger' is apt considering the circumstances.

G
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