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Book III of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
translated by David Pingree
Notes on Dorotheus III: the haylāj, Kadhkhudāh, and terms of life
by Deborah Houlding
Godfather of Modernity: The Alan Leo Legacy Vol. One - Early Astrological Journals 1890-1912, compiled by Philip M Graves
Reviewed by Deborah Houlding
Lilly's Considerations
compiled by D. Houlding

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Non Mystery Chart
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 957
Location: Delhi

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is something about mars and mercury that gives a brilliant mind and capacity to deal in big numbers.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Einstein,_Albert
The speed light has a few numerals.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hawking,_Steven_William

He deals with astronomical numbers.

Maddof doesn't seem to be technically oriented but it seems a number cruncher but he aligned with various organizations pretty early to climb the ladder.

This one won a Nobel prize.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Heisenberg,_Werner

PD
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varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
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Location: Lemuria

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Mark
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Posts: 4200
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Varuna 2 wrote:
Quote:
Bobby Fischer, a brilliant chess player had a Mercury conjunct ketu. In his case the intellect was distorted and magnified by ketu, but his ability for Mercury to act, certainly wasn't diminished by the south lunar node.


Actually, notions of both the nodes sharpening the mind in connection with Mercury are found in western traditional astrology too.

Quote:
"Fifthly, when he (Mercury) is not afflicted, especially of Mars, but is well placed, and in an airy sign, especially Aquarius, and with North Node or South Node, he renders most acute and witty men, and good linguists, speaking many languages..." (Christian astrology, William Lilly p.545)


In Fischer's chart Mercury is at 27 Aquarius!

Fischer's Mother is reputed to have understood numerous languages ( accounts vary from 6-9) And Fischer himself was possibly one of the first American chess players to study Russian chess magazines. Remarkably, he was doing this in his teens!

Yes the nodes in connection with Mercury do seem to accentuate the mind , but don't forget all the fortunate prerequisites to the aphorism quoted above. I am sure that any indications of affliction would be exaggerated by the presence of the nodes too.

Looking at Fisher's life his brilliance was undeniable but it clearly brought him no peace or contentment. His mental health issues, and bizarre anti-semitism (his Mother was Jewish!) dont indicate a blessed Mercury to me.

However, I do think Fischer is an extreme case. Other people with Mercury conjunct the South Node seem less troubled. For example the film Director Steven Spielberg or the musician Bruce Springsteen.

We also have references to the nodes in connection with the Moon:

Quote:
"Moon with North Node or South Node shows active spirits, prompt to any science; best of all when she increases in light, and is not far from the full" (Christian Astrology,by William Lilly, p.544)


Nevertheless, Lilly's work, in particular his chart work not just in Christan Astrology but in all his publications, shows a very strong and clear emphasis on the South Node as a difficult, troublesome, malefic point. From his own chart experience Lilly did not agree with the common medieval idea that the South Node diminished the effects of malefics. He always found it a troublesome influence.

Previous sources tended to focus on the south node reducing the effect of malefics. For example from the Picatrix:

Quote:
Know that the nature of the Head of the Dragon is of increasing; if she is in conjunction with favourable planets, there is augmentation in their sovereignty and force; if she is in conjunction with unfavourable planets, therefore they augment their nuisance and unhappiness. In the same way, the Tail of the Dragon is of the nature of reducing. If she is in conjunction with favourable planets, she diminishes their advantage; but if it is with unfavourable planets, she diminishes their evils and their damage. I advise you to understand what precedes with care. The Picatrix", Book 3, Chapter 3, Para 10


Varuna 2 wrote:
Quote:
From a jyotish perspective, ketu does not diminish a planet's power to act, rather the nodes can magnify and distort the planet, whether for good or ill, and this good or ill can be a matter of perspective and opinion, while at the same time it can be good for some aspects of life and bad for other aspects of life.


I thought it was a mainstream jyotish view today that both nodes are malefics?

The main difference being jyotish sees Rahu (North Node) as the more malefic of the two. The Indian notion that Ketu (South Node) is associated with spirituality and renunciation while Rahu (North Node) is linked to materialism and desire is interesting. This perfectly encapsulates the different cultural values of east and west. The west sees Rahu as positive with its focus on material success, progress and gain. Ketu is associated with things like illness, loss, death, etc.

Looking at things from a Hindu perspective though tied into reincarnation Rahu is a lot about desire and binding people to the cycle of rebirth. The malefic quality of Rahu seems to be rather one of excess based on over attachment to material success and sensual pleasures. On the material plane Ketu can be seen as unfortunate but on the spiritual level it can be seen as a potential catalyst for spiritual awakening reminding people of the impermanence of all human life and the vanity of material success in the ultimate sense. Ketu is therefore an opportunity for spiritual insight. However, Ketus energy is sometimes expressed in the behaviour of one who does not want to be involved in the material world and seeks out their own vision of reality. Hence they may seek to escape into a fantasy world.

Ketu has links to people who are unorthodox, unconventional and deviants. Fischer seems to fit this perfectly both in his highly original brilliant chess playing and his ultimate rejection of /and by his home country.

In any case looking at modern India the worldview of Rahu seems very much on the ascendant!

Varuna 2 wrote:
Quote:
In Madoff's case Venus did indeed bring him a leader position, and the nodes did indeed distort his mind as well so he must have thought his was a legitimate method of business.


Why? What have the nodes got to do with his mind here? There is no connection to Moon or Mercury?

Mark
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''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

Epictetus
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While concentrating on Fischer's brilliance is an obvious thing to do, it was his single minded focus that was most remarkable. He did teach himself enough Russian to read Russian chess magazines - no more. He was a high school drop out who when asked a question about other things, would reply, "What's that got to do with chess?"

Fischer was living proof of the adage, "Even paranoids have enemies." He ranted and raved and even wrote an article that the Russians had rigged world chess. He was right. But his paranoia grew with age until, like many of them, it may have contributed to his death. Paranoids often refuse medicine and food at the end fearing poison.

Fischer's instability and bizarre behavior was often overlooked because of his undeniable genius over the chess board. His focus would have looked like a problem, if he wasn't so much better at what he focused on than anyone else in the world had ever been to that point. Americans in particular overlooked much because he was beating the Russians at their own game and he was doing it by himself, his own way and at the risk of losing it all he stood up to them - we like that.

John Frawley once observed that if the 8th house is involved "something is going to die." With Fischer it was his rational thought.

PS His father may have been Jewish too.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark,

not that i can answer for varuna, but one obvious connection to a persons mind being affected by the nodes regardless of what planet aligns with the nodal axis is the fact that these are the nodes of the moon.. the part of the mind associated with the moon is implicated from the get go and especially if planets are closely connected to it, regardless if they are planets of the mind or not.
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varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
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Location: Lemuria

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Mark
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
While concentrating on Fischer's brilliance is an obvious thing to do, it was his single minded focus that was most remarkable. He did teach himself enough Russian to read Russian chess magazines - no more. He was a high school drop out who when asked a question about other things, would reply, "What's that got to do with chess?"


True but his brilliance and creativity as a chess player is what made him famous. He is rated by many chess authorities as the greatest player in history. Still, even for a chess player Fischer was especially obsessive and single minded about the game. His Mother was so worried about his monomania on chess as a child that she took him to a Psychiatrist but was reassured there was nothing abormal (hmmm).

Looking at that Mercury I see it disposits both the Lot of Fortune and Spirit. There are many antiscions in Fischer's chart. One of the most interesting being the contra-antiscion between Mercury and the Moon. I would give some attention to the Mercury-Uranus square here too and Moon-Pluto square. Fischers aggressive style of chess play which was his hallmark is well reflected in that out of sect, peregrine Mars in the 7th square his exalted Moon in Taurus in the 10th.

Anyway, I better not get any more into Fischer or chess as I find the subject too fascinating! Fischer's life is an intriguing study in brilliance, obsession, paranoia, and dysfuntional eccentricity. I am surprised Hollywood haven't taken an interest in his life. Then again he is hardly the all American hero!

Mark
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''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

Epictetus
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Varuna 2 wrote:
Quote:
Some jyotishis said Mars conjunct ketu can have a tendency to violence, depending on the situation.


I dont think there is any doubt about that. I could show you numerous examples of terrorist attacks linked to the Mars on the South Node! Mars seems to be be particularly activated on either node or square the nodes.

I have come across lots of charts of successful sportsmen with Mars on NN but still looking for examples of charts with it on the SN.

Varuna 2:
Quote:
I understand the idea of prerequisite conditions, and I am sure Yuki did too, concerning the complexity of various planetary configurations; it is difficult to have discussions without having to qualify every statement with a paragraph of disclaimers.


You have taken my comments out of context. That is not what I meant. I was simply pointing out that Lilly gave a list of criteria for this more positive expression of the SN. Of course no one has to just accept this. We should all examine such ideas in practical delineation ourselves.

Varuna 2 wrote:
Quote:
I read an article about the IC and those roots, and it seems like this idea of the hidden 4th can be alluded to mind in astrology in general, once one knows that it does represent this in jyotisha. Sometimes, the 4th is also called the 'heart.'


In ancient astrology the 4th house and the IC in particular has a link to occult or hidden matters. This may be where the Jytosh idea comes from. Hence personal planets on the IC might indicate such an interest. The main focus on the mind is through planets as the active agents of the horoscope. Hence for Ptolemy the Moon is the instinctive mind and Mercury the rational mind. Some sources such as Valens also suggest the Sun has a link to the spirit or higher mind. As for houses the mind can be represented through lots of houses depending on what planets are activated. However, the 1st house , and 3rd-9th axis seems especially linked in this way. These are respectively, the joys of Mercury, the Moon and Sun. In Madoff's chart Venus is Lord 3.

Mark
_________________
''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

Epictetus


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Tom
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Then again he is hardly the all American hero!


Sad to say I am old enough to well recall the Fischer-Spassky World Championship in 1972. At first we were all proud and happy one of ours was taking on one of theirs and possibly going to beat him. The cold war was on. But when the match first started Fisher acted like such an ass, and Spassky like such a gentleman (he was and is), that loyalties started to switch. He was embarrassing the nation. The terms were settled and nothing was left but to play - so play dammit! I believe it was an Englishman who put up a lot of money and effectively told Fisher to put up or shut up. I remember agreeing with that sentiment. But once it got going Americans became fascinated with chess. Bars that usually only had baseball on the TV (This was well in advance of the sports bar) switched to chess. Chess sets were quickly sold out and couldn't be had at any price. Chess clubs membership soared. It was in 1972, long before the advent of the personal computer, that geeks first became sex objects. Women swooned if you could explain the latest wrinkle in the Gruenfeld Defense. OK maybe this last is a bit of an exaggeration.

But sadly when it came time to defend his championship, Fischer bolted. Yeah that was not very American. You fight, and if you lose, you lose.

Fisher was nuts and by that time, it was obvious. I suppose he is to be pitied more than anything.
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varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
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Location: Lemuria

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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jorge



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asc ruler conjunct 12th ruler in eminence position. That`s enough for me
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 110

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your answers and thoughts on the subject of the Nodes. I must admit I find Vedic astrology hard to digest, as I know nothing about it and the terminology is quite alien to me. Still, from what you said Varuna and also Mark, it seems that my understanding of the Southnode being a force that limits or destroys the planet's capability to act, was wrong.
I found an article by Benjamin Dykes on the subject, in which he states that there's both a qualitative and quantitative increase (NN) and decrease (SN). S-node decreases the good of the benefics and the bad of the malefics and therefore sometimes acts as a malefic and sometimes as a benefic. In the chart presented here it seems to do just that, Venus is as strong as ever in the 10th, but less beneficial. The quanitative decrease shows itself not in a diminishing of the planet's strength to act, but in a destruction of the affairs of the house it is in. 'It empties out'. And this too it does, reputation, honours, professional rewards, all gone. Although it seems to me, that just the SN's position in a house, without any close connection to its rulers, can't be enough to do that. We all have a SN, can't imagine a whole area of life is destroyed on account of having it there.

So I do feel this point has been clarified for me.
And Mark, I've become quite ambitious about finding a chart with Mars conjunct SN, will let you know when I find one Smile

Cheers,
Yuki
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James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 105
Location: Canada

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yukionna wrote:
I've become quite ambitious about finding a chart with Mars conjunct SN, will let you know when I find one Smile



How about this one:

Ted Bundy
Nov 24 1946
10:35 pm (EST)
Burlington, Vermont
44N28'33" / 073W12'45"

Mars at 13Sa22 conjunct SN at 11Sa42

or

Brad Pitt
Dec 18 1963
6:31 am (CST)
Shawnee, Oklahoma
35N19'38" / 096W55'30"

Mars at 10Cp02 conjunct SN at 11Cp10


james
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mars on south node in the charts of athletes.. astrodatabank.com is a helpful research tool for those unaware of it..

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Biondi,_Matt
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Didrickson,_%22Babe%22
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Spitz,_Mark


mars conjunct north node

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Armstrong,_Lance
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Pele
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Lewis,_Carl
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Rigby,_Cathy

mars square nodal axis

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Montana,_Joe
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to James + James!

I have been doing this the hard way and have worked my way through the entire Clifford Data files on Solar Fire.

I found these charts too eventually but thanks for the help. I plan to continue collecting data on this topic.

Both Spitz and Biondi certainly qualify as first rate sportsmen. I wouldn't count Didrickson as Mars is so far from the Nodes. Although the question of what orbs to use for the nodes is itself a debate. I tend to give focus to planets within 3 degrees but would probably go up to 5 degrees. Of course one could argue the influence extends as far as the planetary orbs as the nodes are invisible points.


Mark Spitz
A world-record holder and Olympic swimmer. During the Munich 1972 Olympics he won seven gold medals (from 28 August to 4 September 1972).

Matt Biondi.
He won seven medals (three golds) at the 1986 world championships and another seven (with five golds) in the 1988 Seoul Olympics.

Both Spitz and Biondi have Mars in a night chart so it is in sect.

Another sportsman with Mars on the NN is the Australian Tennis champion John Newcombe. Newcome won several Grand Slam tournaments in the late 1960's and 1970's including Wimbledon (1967, 1970, 1971), The US Open (1967, 1973) and The Australian Open (1973, 1975).

Mark
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''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

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