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Attack on Rudhyar ?
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 382

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Paul,

I think that you still didn't answer the question...

Would you feel better thinking that the mean ole universe came along and tripped up your horse for no other reason than "sh!t happens"... or to think that this accident was somehow a stepping stone, albeit a painful one?

To me, I have had great joys/triumphs in life and I have had very painful events. What has been the most helpful in both cases is to admit (to myself) that they were part of my journey...another chapter of lessons in my life. When someone close to me died, they weren't "taken from me", they were being utilized elsewhere...and in some cases, it was necessary to MY growth that they not be here anymore... Would I say that I caused their deaths? No, of course not! Would I say (in retrospect) that several of those deaths were directly responsible for some of my most important growth or directly changed my circumstances so growth would follow? Absolutely!

I think that part of my perspective comes from a spiritual stance... ie. wanting to see meaning where possible, rather than life as a pinball machine with unforeseeable trajectories. The other part of this perspective comes from doing so many rectifications. Time after time after time, we see particular symbolism and then, just like a German train schedule, here comes the major event fitting that symbolism, WHICH THEN DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY SERVES SOME MAJOR WAKE-UP OR LIBERATION FUNCTION to the person.

As I have mentioned before... in my event list, I have 6 deaths of important people... In Primary Directions and Secondaries, there are 18 aspects to the 8th House cusp within just minutes of arc, certainly way, way against what probability would dictate. These events occurred right on schedule.

The question still remains as to whether anything would have mitigated the damages... We, of course, can't know; but I think that yes, the event still happened, but I had (subconsciously) maneuvered myself into a position where the sting was much, much less.

I do understand where you are coming from relative to clients... we can't leave them feeling like every bad thing was invited in by them. On the other hand, our not saying it, does not make it not so. Wink

To put it most bluntly, if you were born blind in this lifetime and have always wondered why did this happen... if you could see beyond the veil, you would see directly why. [Edgar Cayce also very clear on this point... in one instance a roaming nomad would rob families crossing the desert and then blinded people so that the raider could not be identified. What could be better karma balancing than to go through a subsequent life never seeing? Perfection! An eye for an eye, as they say.]

This IS a deep philosophical discussion and very interesting...the problem is, we are stating our opinions and in most cases, those are incredibly subjective...

Still, if there is any belief in the idea that we do in fact, reap what we sow, then it would seem logical that any mitigating we do relative to what we sow that it can have a direct impact (and WILL) over what we reap.

Peace

James
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atlantean wrote:

Would you feel better thinking that the mean ole universe came along and tripped up your horse for no other reason than "sh!t happens"... or to think that this accident was somehow a stepping stone, albeit a painful one?


I thought I did. What I'm saying is that neither of those scenarios bother me. It's difficult to say which I'd prefer because really neither of those two bother me or are appealing to me. Considering it is outside my remit to be able to control whether the horse fell or not, it falling being some providence or a simple old accident wouldn't bother me, nor for that matter comfort me.
In a lot of ways it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. They both have pros and cons but I have no particular attachment to either of the pros or cons if you see what I mean.

Quote:
What has been the most helpful in both cases is to admit (to myself) that they were part of my journey...another chapter of lessons in my life.


For me, like everyone, I have had what I perceive as problems in my life, and yes, I learn from them. But it doesn't bother me too much whether I say to myself "this problem is happening cos I have to learn something", as saying "A problem has happened but I've woven a silver lining into it by learning something from it". I'm agnostic as to whether it happened to ENABLE me to learn something (and thus to grow more as an individual), or whether I simply accept that all of life is growth, and therefore all things, be they good or bad, serves to enable that growth.

What I can focus on is how I respond and react to that event. For whatever reason, this approach is just more satisfying to me.
Now if a pattern begins to emerge, then I'll consider it more like a 'message' - either objectively 'real', in the sense that they are signposts on my spiritual/psychological journey, or simply perceived, as in, my mind happens to be focusing and seeing these patterns, but they are not signposts per se, just self-observations.
I don't beat myself up when bad things happen because I "should have looked closer at that energy" or say "my pet died, but it died cos I have to deal with my 6th house saturn transit", instead I simply accept that death is part of life and death is inevitable, all things are impermanent and my pet's life is one of them. I'll grieve, but I won't blame myself or beat myself up.
For me my pet doesn't die because of some deep failing on my part, or because of negative karma in a previous life, or because I'm just not psychologically AWARE enough to keep it alive (indefinitely). It's because animals, like all beings, die. It is only my attachment to the illusion that A) I have total control over my destiny, and B) that my psyche has potentially god like power, that could cause me suffering.

In this respect I guess I naturally follow a Buddhist-like philosophy with regards non-attachment, and for whatever reason, this seems best suited to me. I think it would be worse to think that my pet wouldn't have died if it wasn't for my human failings.

Quote:
I do understand where you are coming from relative to clients... we can't leave them feeling like every bad thing was invited in by them. On the other hand, our not saying it, does not make it not so.p


Right, our not saying it won't mean it's not true. But our not saying it does mean that if it ISN'T true, we won't have potentially psychologically scarred them, and regardless of whether it is true or not true, we won't be projecting (and enforcing?) our particular paradigms onto, potentially vulnerable, people. These things are not a pre-requisite for astrology. It is not that in order for astrologers to do astrology we must adapt these philosophies. Because of that I tend to keep my astrology to simply just astrology wherever I can. If advice is asked IN ADDITION to that, well okay, I'll explain my own viewpoint as I would if the person were my friend, and I'll let them make up their own mind on how best to handle the situation. Sometimes I can't be much help and I'll say that. I'll tell the Indian client "The horary shows that there's little chance of a successful marriage with this individual, however, there is someone else who seems more likely for a marriage, and this significator is (let's imagine) linked up with your fourth house, so perhaps someone of a more similar cultural or racial background". But let's say it doesn't show that, let's say it shows that their significators are in trine with mutual reception or something, I'd say "Well it looks like there is a good chance of a harmonious marriage with this person" but if she asks for advice about how to have a successful marriage with someone of a 'lower' caste - well I'm entirely impotent to help, I've no idea about these cultural considerations and I've never had any trouble saying "I don't know".

Quote:
To put it most bluntly, if you were born blind in this lifetime and have always wondered why did this happen... if you could see beyond the veil, you would see directly why. [Edgar Cayce also very clear on this point... in one instance a roaming nomad would rob families crossing the desert and then blinded people so that the raider could not be identified. What could be better karma balancing than to go through a subsequent life never seeing? Perfection! An eye for an eye, as they say.]


Right, but this kind of thinking just leaves me cold. I'm being punished for some imagined crime I may or may not have committed in some previous life.
My preference is to think I'm born blind. This is what I know. How I deal with that now is up to me, but I may experience suffering that other people are not born blind but I have the bad fortune to be, but if I let go of those feelings of 'hardship' and if I am simply quietly accepting of my condition, then I can refocus my efforts on finding new and creative ways of living my life.
Ideas of "ha! you deserved it for being a bad person in some previous life that you can't even remember and would not even recognise" just don't fulfil me. In this respect I'd depart from Edgar Cayce, and for that matter many Buddhist philosophies. The important part is in recognising that things are outside your control, but your reactions to those things never are.

I guess I can't help but know many otherwise successful and happy people who are not particularly nice people, who are bullies, or who are not compassionate, or who are selfish and manipulative. For me it is clear that material success is not linked to spiritual advancement, and similarly those who are destitute, or who are born blind or whatever else may be truly generous and compassionate people.

For me it's much simpler, ideas of "this is your fault" just dont' help me. It may be, it may not be, but it won't change the facts. If I totally own all my planetary energy, will this stop death? Will it cause fallen bricks to slow down mid air and pause above me? Will it prevent my animal dying?
I don't think so. But if I cultivate less attachment to ideas that life should be all 'happy' and if I cultivate more acceptance that life changes and that part of that change is decay and death - then maybe I won't take it so personal next time a pet dies, maybe if I focus on giving up attachments to all of this, maybe then I'll live a more fulfilled life.
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varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
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Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 6:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul and Atlantean, I think one thing you have to do is to unpack the concept of "meaning." Was the brick "meant" for your head? Were you "meant" to have an accident at that moment-- or any moment?

Does "meaning" imply some agency? If so, by whom or by what?

Incidentally, bricks are ruled by Saturn and Capricorn; and accidents by Mars and Uranus, according to Rex E. Bills, The Rulership Book. Presumably the falling brick problem could relate to some nasty transit involving these planets. (OK, traditionalists-- leave out Uranus and add Mercury or somesuch.)

In my previous post, I gave an example where I did have some responsibility for falling bricks.

But Rudhyar's point-- as obtuse as he makes it-- is that accidents happen in life. It's no good feeling victimized because when we sign up for a lifetime membership on Planet Earth, the fine print in the contract states that we acknowledge that Earth is not inherently safe, and we agree not to hold the Management responsible for liability.

I think his real point is whether people see themselves as victims. Which I think the Stoics said we do have some control over.

Also, current events are full of oh-so-inspiring stories of people who did have rotten accidents-- losing limbs or becoming paraplegic, for example, yet they do find the good in what happened to them. One of the best examples I can think of was a news report of a teenager who lost both his legs in a boating accident. He went on to work with children with disabilities, which he said he never would have done as an able-bodied person. He actually said on the news he was therefore glad his accident had happened.

This example further suggests that meaning is created by the individual, not somehow external to us in the ozone.

Most of us aren't that stoic, but Ptolemy essentially says in his intro to Tetrabiblos that forewarned is forearmed, and that this is the value of astrology.
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But Rudhyar's point-- as obtuse as he makes it-- is that accidents happen in life. It's no good feeling victimized because when we sign up for a lifetime membership on Planet Earth, the fine print in the contract states that we acknowledge that Earth is not inherently safe, and we agree not to hold the Management responsible for liability.


I don't think that's Rudhyar's point, as I understood it, his point isn't that accidents happen, it's that you happen to 'accidents' in the sense that there are no accidents, there's is just your misuse of consciousness. That the brick falls is your fault.
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the longer quote from the link posted on page on of this thread:

"An individual person walks or drifts along collectively determined social paths toward the future. He meets the vast pageant of universal action and reaction. He meets the world; the world does not bother to go and meet him. If a brick falls upon the man's head as he walks along a street, it is the man's responsibility. He walked into the field of the brick's fall. He happened to the brick, because he is a conscious individual and the brick only a piece of universal nature. Man happens to nature. He uses the forces of nature; his, the responsibility for the results. Nature is unconcerned. It merely acts and reacts."

Of course, if we look only at the brick part, the message seems pretty silly. What I think Rhudhar says, however, is that by taking responsibility for living in the physical universe, as it comes to us and as it happens, there really is no victimology or no fault involved, to use your expression.

I don't think he is saying, "If a brick falls onb your head it is your own damn fault." Rather, "Bricks happen. Accidents are part of life. Adjust."

Gosh! I don't even particularly like Rudhyar's brand of writing or astrology. Funny I should appear to be sticking up for him. I am not. I am only trying to interpret what I think is his meaning behind the brick example.

Previously in this essay Rudhyar talks about "a conscious participant in the activities of a greater whole - be it called society, humanity, or God; a power for destruction..." Put this way, everytime we walk down the street, we should consciously recognize that the world is an inherently dangerous place, and not blame society, God, or ourselves for misfortunes.

But have it your way, Paul. Most times I am very critical of Rudhyar's form of astrology.

It would bother me to think that his brand of metaphysics is how a traditional astrologer would view modern astrology today; any more than a traditional astrologer would not wish to have a modernist equate traditional astrology sum toto with its peculiarities and bizarre statements.

p.s. I just found out today how much income tax I owe! Yikes. Talk about a "brick" falling on my head. But it is my responsibility to keep on top of the regulations.
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:
But have it your way, Paul.


It is not that I want to have it 'my way'. This is just how I read his comments, not just the isolated pieces that have been quoted, but his work as a whole. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding him, but it is not because I'm wanting to misunderstand him. I have no real attachment one way or another to Rhudyar, I don't particularly care about him either way.
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello waybread

Interesting name... should we know where it comes from? ie. is it a cultural reference or something personal? As someone that picks quirky names, I am curious to others' "quirky names", if you don't mind that characterization.

Re: "This example further suggests that meaning is created by the individual, not somehow external to us in the ozone."

It might suggest that, but I don't agree. I think that all of life (here) is for our development...there is a deep and intrinsic purpose for all things. All the way from "meeting your future mate in an internet chat room" to "the death of one's uncle in a car accident" to "that 89 you got on your 3rd grade book report"... all have their reason.

My coming to this conclusion is partially related to seeing over and over again how the events in people's lives serve important purposes for their development. Certainly, if we stay (focus-wise) mired in the mundane elements of clients' lives, then we likely won't see these obvious splashes of meaning behind the events. Usually, taking one step outside and asking WHY will give very clear meaning.

An example... two people are in a long term relationship (14 years) and from both the astrology and their lives, it's hard to see or understand the connection...they have really no common ground. One wants to socialize a lot, the other wants to stay home virtually every night. One of them is up and mostly optimistic, the other is moody, dark, and very much a realist. One of them wants a home together, fitting their dream vision of what "togetherness" would mean. The other one wants to live in a separate home down the street. One of them wants a father figure for their Son (from a different relationship), while the other one views the Son as competition for affection and therefore conducts a secret "war" against the Son. ETC.! Now, seeing the first one of them having symbolism for meeting and trying out new perspective partners and then doing exactly that, tells me that the activity is necessary for further development. The relationship unhappiness begs for it...the astrology corroborates it...and the life is finding the expression of it. The need for it, the astrological statement of it, and the events of the life reflecting it are a package deal.

The meaning behind it is intrinsic. Oxygen was discovered, it wasn't invented.

It's not just through astrology that this "higher level" functioning exists. Very, very often, I will start to go somewhere or do something and suddenly a thought enters my mind to do some additional thing, perhaps to bring something with me. LATER, some event/circumstance changes, and the very thing that was brought FOR NO REASON AT THE TIME, turns out to be a fundamental positive that it happened. This happens very often. As just one simple example... I am getting ready to leave the house. I have all that I need. For some reason, when getting ready to leave, suddenly my attention is on which coat I grab. On this day, I grab a warmer, dress coat, that is actually warmer than what I need. I realize this, but since I feel that I am supposed to take it, I do. Later, my Wife calls and she has an appointment that is running long and I have to go open her jewelry store and wait until she comes in. The keys for the store were in that warm, dress coat. I took the coat for no real reason, against my own inclinations and later find out WHY. My reasoning? My subconscious knows that I will need to get into the jewelry store, however, since I don't consciously know that yet, taking the "wrong coat" doesn't seem to make any sense. Later, I find out that if I had taken the "right coat", I wouldn't be prepared to open the store. This is one very isolated example. These kinds of things happen constantly.

I have a bag that I keep my guitar accessories in. Once a week, when playing guitar with a friend, I always grab my guitar, the bag and my effects pedals. On one day, really for no known reason, I grab a second bag (really by "mistake") and cart that one along too. Later, at the friend's house, I discover that I need a little adapter plug because one of his quit working the night before! Had I not "mistakenly" taken my extra bag, I would have had to race back home. These things happen constantly. If we remove meaning from this, then they're just a repeating series of random events. If they were just random events, then as often as I take something I don't need and later find out I do need it, would be offset with as many instances of not taking something and later finding out I needed to.

Just today, I have a paper that I need to have my doctor fill out. It was for a very important meeting scheduled for today. When the chance to see the doctor came up on Tuesday, I decided that I didn't need to go. I didn't know WHY, but I just (on some level) knew that it was not necessary. While writing this post, my appointment called me to let me know that she had started work, but was losing her voice and needed to reschedule for next week, Thursday.

I see all these side-elements as being interconnected on some level. Were it not for some ultimate reason, these strange deviations from the norm would not keep happening, leaving me better prepared for my (then indeterminate!) future.

When I go back over my event list of my life, I can see how each of these main events had both a surface component (the event) as well as some imparted meaning, lesson, or (let's say) paradigm modification connected with it, but much more important than the event itself. Interestingly, the ultimate meaning behind the event matches the astrological symbolism!

I like this stance,...it is comforting. Even the little things in my life are still important to the ordering of the universe. Wink


Peace

James
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul-- what I meant was that I am not going to the mat for Dane Rudhyar!

Hi Atlantean-- My nickname has several meanings.... food for our journey (lembas of the Tolkien trilogy), as well as a common name for a very common weed that actually has a lot of medicinal value (Plantago major.)

I don't dispute what some might call synchronicity. My sense is that people who are very authentic in their lives often have good "coincidences" happen to them. But at some point, these people have to be a stand for their authenticity, and be willing to see synchronicity when it occurs.

You've probably heard the parable about the man with a wonderful son (good news) but then son breaks his leg and is disabled, which is bad news, but then this keeps him out of the army, which is good news, &c. &c.

By my "ozone" comment, I meant that sometimes people think that luck is just something that bonks them on the head. You win the lottery. The government says you owe them $4000 in taxes. The individual had nothing to do with it. But if we unpack these "luck"-related events, there is usually an element of some personal responsibility in what the person did.

Maybe what Rudhyar is saying is that people are part of the universe, not isolated from it such that it makes sense to think of an absolute binary comprised of "me" and "everything else." If we are not the dependent variable and the universe is not the independent variable, then it makes sense to think we can and do influence the outcome of events.

Of course, life is one big learning experience! The only question is, what sort of meaning or interpretation do we place on it?
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