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Horary example in Sidereal
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 568

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:00 am    Post subject: Horary example in Sidereal Reply with quote

Hi,

I would just like to share a recent horary chart I did for someone which I have just received the outcome for.

The querent had been to a job interview at the end of February for which they were unsuccessful. The interviewer said that feedback would be given to all applicants and when the querent received their feedback, it was very positive with the interviewer saying that they almost were awarded one of the positions.

The querent thought that there was still a chance of being offered a job because of that e-mail and asked a horary of me. Here is the chart:



First thing to notice is the VOC Moon but she is in her own domicile, so all is not lost. Querent is Mars in the 5th and Rx which is telling of the querent's attitude here. The job is Jupiter, ruler of the MC by degree. There is a mutual application between Jupiter and Mars with reception by domicile while Jupiter is placed in the 1st house. A very positive testimony. However, you may notice that Venus will perfect with Jupiter before Mars gets there. This would be a typical prohibition but Venus then trines Mars thus carrying Jupiter's light to Mars before Mars perfects immediately himself. For me this showed the querent getting a job with this company. Venus rules the 7th house of opponents (in this context) and is in detriment. Therefore it made sense to me to think that a ruined significator of another person translating the light of the job to the querent's significator would show someone who previously got the job not being suitable for it or messing up their opportunity.

The querent informed me at the beginning of the weekend that they had been offered a position with the company but in a role different to the one which they originally applied for and it was due to another applicant not fully endearing themselves to the management in their first few days.

One other thing about this horary is the timing. Venus is doing the work here and is in a movable sign and an angular house, so she will show a short time frame. She perfects with Mars in 8 1/2 deg so I judged it to be around a week. The querent received a phone call on Wednesday evening, the 14th March, which is roughly 8 1/2 days after the chart was cast.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice one, Konrad!
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good Konrad!

Did you notice that MC is in Sagittarius and Venus then translates light from Jupiter to Mars. Jupiter, then does not need the prohibiter tag being cancelled - it is a signifactor. Venus becomes the facilitator and it's separating opposition With Saturn (11th lord- colleavue) signifying a colleague who left the job and retrogression of exalted Saturn showing the colleagues dissatisfaction after being selected.

There are so many ways to skin the cat, including sidereal skinning Smile

PD
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that is what I meant about Venus usually prohibiting the Jupiter - Mars contact but since Venus then translated the light while having some contextual relevance as ruler of the 7th, I judged it as part of the story.

Well spotted on Saturn though, I suppose him being in the 7th Rx would also afflict the person signified by Venus. You're right too, there are so many ways to do astrology and still arrive at the same conclusions.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am so happy to see more actual chart work. Thanks, Konrad! Just think how much wiser we'd be if every paragraph posted on astrological forums was accompanied by a chart we could study.
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: Horary example in Sidereal Reply with quote

Hi Konrad

I've never seen a horary chart cast in the sidereal style, so this is quite interesting. Hopefully we get some more of these. I'm kind of of the impression that whomever is actually casting the chart needs to stick to their own idiosyncrasies - so if you're used to casting it in tropical and regiomontanus, do that. I do not doubt that sidereal horary would work for a sidereal astrologer because basically I think the mind of the astrology is an important factor that's involved in the process.

It would be good to get more of these I guess.
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Konrad



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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul,

I think part of the problem with this is that most people conceptualise the Divine - divide the indivisible - and then attempt to fit it into the relatively tiny mind in which they exist. If I can cast a horary chart and judge something from it which then matches the same person's chronocators in the nativity (which I have) then we are dealing with something which far exceeds the zodiac or house-system or period of astrology used. So you're right; I think the Creator can handle two zodiacs giving the same results. Smile

About a month ago, I went through all of my horaries in both zodiacs (originally cast in Tropical with varying house systems) and, rather unsurprisingly, most of them showed the outcome well enough in both zodiacs. Sidereal was a bit more descriptive for me but I did well enough before I started using it anyway, especially in Horary.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I may offer a less mystical understanding (although I sympathize on principle with the comment about the mind not being able to contain the divine), a traditional chart has only seven planets, and the same planetary configurations may come to the forefront using different zodiacs; furthermore, many considerations are not zodiac-dependent at all. Having said that, however, I do think that those which are zodiac-dependent (such as dignities and rulerships) tend to work better with a sidereal zodiac – that's why I use it.

Paul wrote:
I've never seen a horary chart cast in the sidereal style, so this is quite interesting. Hopefully we get some more of these.

I'd be happy to contribute an example or two, if there is an interest. There is some evidence to suggest that horary astrology originated in India; whether that is the case or not, it was certainly developed in India and Persia, where sidereal tables were used, before being adopted by Arabic-language authors. (I wonder what is the earliest attested date of horary astrology using the tropical zodiac – does anyone know?)
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
So you're right; I think the Creator can handle two zodiacs giving the same results. Smile


Sure, but that's not quite the point I was making. I wasn't even envisioning a divine creator, my point is much simpler, that the individual is part of the process - not just part, but an important part. It's not so much that the same horary chart would work in sidereal and tropical, more that for the sidereal astrologer who thinks and acts with the sidereal zodiac in mind, for whatever reason, the charts they draw up in sidereal will work. The same is true for tropical astrologers.

I understand the viewpoint that Martin takes with regards the dignities, and his assertion that they work better in the sidereal zodiac. But I guess my proposition would be that they work better for Martin. Not necessarily that they just objectively work better. I think a natal chart would be a better 'battleground' to examine that though. I do notice that receptions and so forth in tropical astrology seems to work just as expected but have no sidereal examples to compare it to. I basically was under the impression until very recently that I'd have to relearn a whole host of sidereal sign meanings if I ever wanted to examine sidereal astrology.

That's why it would be nice to see one or two sidereal horary charts here like Konrad has done. Maybe we could see some before the outcome is known. I'm just wondering what the approach would be if, for example in this horary, when the outcome wasn't known what people would have made of the void of course moon (albeit it can operate in pisces) and the 'prohibition' of venus, which was really more a translating planet in this example. That's easy to see with hindsight, but I wonder what people would have made of it had they not known. I'm not even interested in comparing the same chart in the tropical zodiac, just in seeing sidereal horary astrologers do sidereal horary astrology and see if, once hte chart is cast by a sidereal astrologer, I could also interpret it as normal.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
Sure, but that's not quite the point I was making. I wasn't even envisioning a divine creator, my point is much simpler, that the individual is part of the process - not just part, but an important part. It's not so much that the same horary chart would work in sidereal and tropical, more that for the sidereal astrologer who thinks and acts with the sidereal zodiac in mind, for whatever reason, the charts they draw up in sidereal will work. The same is true for tropical astrologers.


Yeah, I got that. Why not test your proposition out on your own charts which you originally cast in a Tropical zodiac and see how they would be interpreted in a Sidereal?

Quote:
That's why it would be nice to see one or two sidereal horary charts here like Konrad has done. Maybe we could see some before the outcome is known. I'm just wondering what the approach would be if, for example in this horary, when the outcome wasn't known what people would have made of the void of course moon (albeit it can operate in pisces) and the 'prohibition' of venus, which was really more a translating planet in this example. That's easy to see with hindsight, but I wonder what people would have made of it had they not known. I'm not even interested in comparing the same chart in the tropical zodiac, just in seeing sidereal horary astrologers do sidereal horary astrology and see if, once hte chart is cast by a sidereal astrologer, I could also interpret it as normal.


I don't see why you couldn't use the methodology you already do since I still use Lilly at times in Horary even in the different zodiac. In truth, I haven't changed how I do astrology at all since I changed zodiac.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, here is one which wasn't of momentous importance, but amusing. (This is actually my first attempt at inserting a chart in a post, so bear with me if it doesn't turn out quite as it should. At least it's round! Wink)



The background: I was expecting dinner guests, and half an hour after the appointed time I still hadn't heard from them, so I cast a horary to see whether they would arrive at all, and if so, when.

I took the Sun, ruling the ascendant, as my significator, and Saturn, ruling the 7th, as significator of the guests (the other party). Both are cadent, reflecting the fact that there was little any of us could do: as I later learned, their train had been held up due to some problem related to the snow and cold. There is no applying aspect between the significators, but the Moon is separating from Saturn and applying to the Sun, transferring the light between them, and this application is only 15' away from perfecting. I concluded that the guests would arrive in about 15 minutes. Strictly speaking, this should not be minutes of clock time, but unequal minutes based on the length of night (as the chart is nocturnal). Converted thus, 15 unequal minutes correspond to about 19 minutes of clock time. The guests arrived at 19:53, 19 minutes after the chart had been cast. Smile
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
I don't see why you couldn't use the methodology you already do since I still use Lilly at times in Horary even in the different zodiac. In truth, I haven't changed how I do astrology at all since I changed zodiac.


Right, but I kind of believe that if someone asked me a horary right now, and I'm used to doing it in tropical and I genuinely wanted to help answer it, then I would be doing it in tropical. I'm not sure it would work for me in sidereal.

That said I think for sidereal astrologers it works fine, for whatever reason that is - namely that the astrologer is an important part of the 'equation'. So once someone else casts the chart and posts it here it shouldn't matter and I should be able to interpret like I would anyway.
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great example Martin!

There's a 15 year old I know who struggles with maths and I remember attempting to help him. Woefully he's 15 and struggles with basic long division - in my opinion literacy and numerical skills are verging on extinct in the UK education system. However when I went to help him I realised there was some weird form of how they were taught it that was totally alien and foreign to me. So something simple that I'm normally perfectly comfortable with was totally lost to me in translation.
Sometimes I feel like that when I engage with sidereal astrologers who sometimes refer to concepts that are totally foreign to me but yet who nonetheless often get the same answer as me anyway, but luckily so far with these horary examples there's been nothing odd or unusual!
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Konrad



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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
Right, but I kind of believe that if someone asked me a horary right now, and I'm used to doing it in tropical and I genuinely wanted to help answer it, then I would be doing it in tropical. I'm not sure it would work for me in sidereal.

That said I think for sidereal astrologers it works fine, for whatever reason that is - namely that the astrologer is an important part of the 'equation'. So once someone else casts the chart and posts it here it shouldn't matter and I should be able to interpret like I would anyway.


Well there is only one way to test the reality of your belief but hey, you'll do whatever you do.
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
Paul wrote:
Right, but I kind of believe that if someone asked me a horary right now, and I'm used to doing it in tropical and I genuinely wanted to help answer it, then I would be doing it in tropical. I'm not sure it would work for me in sidereal.

That said I think for sidereal astrologers it works fine, for whatever reason that is - namely that the astrologer is an important part of the 'equation'. So once someone else casts the chart and posts it here it shouldn't matter and I should be able to interpret like I would anyway.


Well there is only one way to test the reality of your belief but hey, you'll do whatever you do.


Right, the problem is that I can probably count on my hands how many horaries I've ever cast for myself. Normally it's for other people and when it's for other people I don't think it's the time to just 'experiment'. That's why I've refrained from it and I'm not aware of any sidereal horary astrology forum. So seeing as we've perfectly competent sidereal astrologers here who also are fluent in horary it seems like it might be a great time to see some sidereal astrologers demonstrate that horary works (at least) equally well via the sidereal zodiac.
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