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My Switching To Sidereal Zodiac and only Planetary Geometry
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Raymond Scott



Joined: 08 Mar 2012
Posts: 20

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I share the views of cosmobiologists. They don't use house systems.
They hardly focus on zodiac signs. Uranian Astrologers don't use zodiac signs, and many of them don't use house signs either. The approach that Ruth Brummond is all geometrical based. Magi Astrology doesn't use zodiac signs nor houses. None of those astrological systems are necessarily wrong for not being like Mainstream Astrology with their use of zodiac sign and house interpretation.


I share the following views with cosmobiologists who consider the following:


The combination of the unique characteristic of each planet involved.

The role a particular aspect plays in relation to the entire chart as a unit.

How the individual chooses to react in given circumstances (positively or negatively)

Environmental conditions.


I agree with what Eleanor Kimmel wrote in her book, Cosmobiology for the 21st Century

"Most astrologers agree that the houses are areas of experiences. But, for instance, is there any proof that the planet Pluto in the ninth house means the same thing for everyone? Would it not be more proper to establish, by research, a common tendency emanating from the qualties of Pluto and leave the "flavor and coloring," etc. , to the environmental, hereditary, cultural, and national factors? After all, ice cream is still ice cream when colored and flavored, and there are more than twelve colors."


Heck...Reinhold Ebertin didn't use any house system because he doubted the validity of them.

The cosmobiologists and uranian astrologers use dials in their work to find planetary pictures.

Johannes Kepler question zodiac signs and house systems.


Those are astrologers that influenced me.

An astrologer can use Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology,and/or Magi Astrology with Sidereal Zodiac. The last time that I checked, I never read a rule that only Sidereal Zodiac Astrologers have to use zodiac sign and house intepretation, and that's the same thing with Tropical Zodiac Astrologers.



Like I said before

I see tropical astrologers try to validate the tropical zodiac and invalidate the sidereal zodiac.
I see sidereal astrologers try to validate the sidereal zodiac and invalidate the tropical zodiac.

Both factions make points to support their view.

I don't know what to think and believe when it comes to zodiacs.

It was only the middle of last month, I decided to look into what the Western Sidereal Zodiac astrologers have to say.

I have been talked down to by Western Sidereal Zodiac Astrologers in the past because I used a Tropical Zodiac for interpretation.

When I say that I don't believe in Tropical Zodiac any more, I am given a hard time by some Tropical Zodiac astrologers and then get the "Neptune card" thrown in the face. These are astrologers that use asteroids like I do, and they use hypothetical planets which I don't use. Who the hell are they to accuse me of being in Neptune delusion for diverging from the Tropical Zodiac? What hypocrites!

It's the same thing with house systems.


I feel like I am seeing a conflict between Protestants and Catholics in Christianity or a conflict between Muslims and Christians when it comes to religion. I don't want any part of it.

No wonder Astrology is not recognized as a valid science and viewed as pseudoscience. It's partly the astrological community's fault for that because of the long time discord in the astrological community.

No wonder I don't want to use any zodiac intepretation nor house interpretation.


Any ways...I switched to the Sidereal Zodiac to use as reference point for aspects. I already made a point about the time differences between the Sidereal Zodiac and Tropical Zodiac. I thought about using tropical zodiac and using precession corrected with transits and return charts like Jamie Partridge does.
I find it easier just for me to compare 2 Sidereal Zodiac charts to look at transits to natal in the Solar Fire Program.

I only use tropical zodiac when I do astrological posts because I want to prevent any communication problems.



Here is a list of astrologers that have been huge influence on my divergent
approach to Astrology

Philip Sedgwick (I have his Galactic Trilogy CD and had a heliocentric
astrological consultation with him...he got me permanently interested in heliocentric astrology....he is also into the use of centaurs,transneptunians,and deep space objects)
http://philipsedgwick.com/

Zane Stein (If it wasn't for him, I wouldn't be into transneptunians and
centaurs.......it was his article on Eris that got me very interested in Eris)
http://www.zanestein.com/chiron.htm

Juan Revilla (I use his Riyal program, and his views influenced me like his view
that orbital symbolism of centaurs,transneptunians need to be taken into account and can't just go by the name for insight)
http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/

Mark Andrew Holmes (he is the one that got me interested in minor aspects with asteroids)
http://markandrewholmes.com/

Jonathan Dunn (I love his site...you can calculate nodes and perihelion/aphelion of any object....even check out right ascension and declination as well as other coordinates)
http://www.true-node.com/eph1/

Martha Lang-Wescott (I have 2 of her books on Asteroid Planetary Picture Astrology...I thought her approach was too
complicated for me, but now I am gaining more interest in her work but without the hypothetical transneptunians)
http://treehousemountain.com/

Zipporah Dobyns (I have her book, The Node Book which includes material on Geocentric Planetary Nodes which also includes the Nodes of the 4 major asteroids)
http://ccrsdodona.org/m_dilemma/awindex.html

Theodor Landscheidt (I have his books, Cosmic Cybernetics, Sun-Earth-Man.....I got interested in Golden Section Aspects and Geocentric Planetary Nodes because of him....I even found out that 3 planets can be in a golden section aspect to each other and form a triangle with corresponding planetary pictures which means that the golden section aspects definitely share a certain harmonic which is unknown)
http://bourabai.narod.ru/landscheidt/consider.htm

Demetria George and Douglas Bloch (I have their book, Astrology For Yourself....it has a lot of material on asteroids)
http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Books/Astrology-for-Yourself-Douglas-Bloch-Demetra-George/9780892541225

Robert Blaschke (I all of his books except for the one on Holographic Transits.
http://earthwalkastrology.com/

Eleanor Kimmel (I have her book, Cosmobiology For the 21st Century)

Robert Hand (I have his book, Horoscope Symbols which helped me understand midpoints,planetary pictures and their connection to harmonics as well as why wide orb aspects aren't necessary...I also have his book, Planets in Transit)

Magi Society (I have their 3rd book....they helped me get interest in
Declinations........also reading their site, they seem to have strong interest
in Uranian Astrological methods like planetary pictures which they refer to as
Magi Quads)
http://www.magisociety.com/index.php

David Cochrane (He influenced my interest in Harmonics..I have his Kepler Astrological software and his book, Astrology For the 21st Century.

now Cyril Fagan (I have changed to Sidereal Zodiac because of him........I have his books, Zodiacs Old And New, Primer of Sidereal Astrology)

I also have History of the Zodiac by Robert Powell.


I think all these astrologers have made contributions to Astrology in their own way. That's only relative perception.

I believe that everything in Astrology is relative. That is why there is so much diversity as well as lack of consensus of things in Astrology. Unfortunately, there is a lot of discord too.


I am not afraid to change my views.
I have done Mainstream Astrology for a good amount of years, but it's just not for me any more. It's just don't feel that it's my path. There is nothing wrong with. We all have our own path in life, and that includes Astrology.
I also want to progress by embracing the 21st Century Solar System, and so I want an Astrology for the 21st Century. I even told Philip Sedgwick that.
Using Heliocentric Astrology and the recent astrological discoveries will be part of that system. Heck...it's based on what Philip Sedgwick does any way.
If you want to jump and criticize me.......then you might as well jump on and criticize Philip Sedgwick and other astrologers like him like Zane Stein, Melanie Reinhart, and Juan Revilla.

There are actually astrologers that progressed and been looking into recent astronomical discoveries. They even proposed names for objects that got accepted like Nessus which is the first object whose name was proposed by astrologers and accepted by astronomers. They studied the orbital elements of Nessus, and they came up with a name that fit with orbital elements like how it links the orbits of Saturn and Pluto. Therefore, they have the view that Saturn/Pluto midpoint is Nessus-sensitive. These are astrologers that have made an attempt to be part of a bridge between Astrology and Astronomy.
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Paul
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Joined: 23 Nov 2009
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raymond Scott wrote:
"I understand what you are saying, however you seem to contradict yourself here, because just in the previous sentence you say "I believe that the same astrological indicators for neurodivergence as the same or similar to astrological indicators for serious psychiatric disorders because of the strong overlap between them"


Sighs........Maybe I am stupid when it comes to expressing myself and try to make points.


No you're not. But it seems at odds with your other statement hence why I highlighted it for some clarity. It sounds to me like on the one hand you're telling astrologers off for lumping neurodivergence with disorders saying, who are they to call you disordered, but then on the other hand you're highlighting yourself how the astrological signatures of both can strongly overlap. So it's hardly any wonder that they might confuse one for the other, or lump them together.

Quote:
I don't believe in mainstream Astrology any more, and I am not going to defend my views about that. I don't expect anybody to have to defend their views about Astrology.


Right, I agree, you shouldn't have to defend your views. But seeing as you've chosen to raise those views here, it won't be a surprise that some people will read them and then question you on them. Defend them? No. But that won't mean that people won't question them either to understand them or to enquire how you solve issues or problems that they themselves may have with the mainstream astrology.

Of course in today's age more and more astrologers are using unusual techniques and adding in many asteroids and TNOs and using a wide variety of zodiacs. In a curious way, the ones who are the most radical these days seem to be those who are most conservative with their astrology, paring down rather than building up. Using less rather than using more. There's some irony to that I think.
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raymond Scott wrote:

I share the following views with cosmobiologists who consider the following:


The combination of the unique characteristic of each planet involved.

The role a particular aspect plays in relation to the entire chart as a unit.

How the individual chooses to react in given circumstances (positively or negatively)

Environmental conditions.


And, might I add to this list, not just cosmobiologists, but also the mainstream astrologers also, they too consider all of the above points.

Quote:

"Most astrologers agree that the houses are areas of experiences. But, for instance, is there any proof that the planet Pluto in the ninth house means the same thing for everyone? Would it not be more proper to establish, by research, a common tendency emanating from the qualties of Pluto and leave the "flavor and coloring," etc. , to the environmental, hereditary, cultural, and national factors? After all, ice cream is still ice cream when colored and flavored, and there are more than twelve colors."


I'm going to play Devil's Advocate with this argument for a second. Eleanor suggests that there's no proof for Pluto in the 9th meaning the same for everyone. But this overlooks a simple premise - that mainstream astrologers claim that it does. The problem of course is that they don't.

And if we want to use this 'is there any evidence' idea, why not apply this to everything else. Is there any evidence that Pluto trine Moon means the same for everyone? Of course not. But again, nobody claimed that it does.

So really Eleanor to some degree is committing a bit of a strawman argument here.

Quote:

An astrologer can use Cosmobiology,Uranian Astrology,and/or Magi Astrology with Sidereal Zodiac. The last time that I checked, I never read a rule that only Sidereal Zodiac Astrologers have to use zodiac sign and house intepretation, and that's the same thing with Tropical Zodiac Astrologers.


Right, but in what real sense is that sidereal? In what way is the sidereal zodiac being utilised?

Quote:

...
No wonder I don't want to use any zodiac intepretation nor house interpretation.


I remember when I used an equal house chart one time some astrologer criticised me spendidly for it. Didn't I know that the only real house system was Whole signs, which are oldest and most accurate? So I used whole sign houses and of course it didn't take long for someone to point out that whole signs are for people who use traditional anitquated astrology that doesn't involve free will and I should use placidus cusps instead. So I used Placidus cusps, and of course it didn't take long to be reminded that those idiotic placidean cusps break down at the pole, I should be using topocentric cusps instead. And so I used topocentric cusps but did I not realise that the Huber clock only works with Koch houses which, let's face it, is practically proof that Koch is where it's really at. And so I used Koch and then got mocked by the horary astrologers who reminded me that Regiomontanus was used successfully in page after page of Christian Astrology and what was I doing with these invented topocentric cusps anyway. And so I used Regiomontanus and eventually a medievally inclined astrologer pointed out the absurdity of those cusps and demonstrated the superiority of alchabitus cusps.

On and on it goes.

Fact is that every astrologer will tell you what the 'right' house system is, or the 'right' zodiac. But just because everyone disagrees doesn't mean the only conclusion is to drop them altogether.

I can guarantee you that there are cosmobiologists who will disagree with one another, Uranian astrologers who have dissenting views. That's just because that's people for you - they disagree.

We'll never have a unified voice on astrology, we have to just have a look ourselves and make up our own minds on what we're comfortable with using.

Quote:

If you want to jump and criticize me.......then you might as well jump on and criticize Philip Sedgwick and other astrologers like him like Zane Stein, Melanie Reinhart, and Juan Revilla.


People haven't criticised you.
But as an interesting aside, did you know that Melanie Reinhart, when she turns to doing horary, dispenses with using the asteroids and interprets much like any traditional horary astrologer does?

Perhaps there's a place for everything.
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Raymond Scott



Joined: 08 Mar 2012
Posts: 20

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

":No you're not. But it seems at odds with your other statement hence why I highlighted it for some clarity. It sounds to me like on the one hand you're telling astrologers off for lumping neurodivergence with disorders saying, who are they to call you disordered, but then on the other hand you're highlighting yourself how the astrological signatures of both can strongly overlap. So it's hardly any wonder that they might confuse one for the other, or lump them together."

I am trying to make a point that neurodivergence and psychiatric disorders overlap in characteristics, and that's why I think the astrological signatures lap.
I am just trying to be logical about that.

many neurodivergents do have misdiagnoses.
A lot of neurodivergents also have co-morbidity of neurodivergence and psychiatric disorders even bipolar and schizophrenia.
Maybe there is a possibility that neurodivergents who are diagnosed as schizophrenics and bipolars are actually metaphysically oriented.

In his books, Dr Harold N. Levinson talked about the problems of neurodivergents being mistook for psychiatric problems.

the late Mary Colley who founded Developmental Adult Neuro-Diversity Association (DANDA) also told me that a lot of neurodivergents have been misdiagnosed bipolar, schizophrenic in UK.

Autism used to be thought as a type of schizophrenia.
Even now, psychotics are being used to treat symptoms of Autism.



For example: left-right confusion,disorganization, problems with eye contact, speech disturbances, and memory problems are symptoms that schizophrenia shares with neurodivergent conditions. Half of schizophrenics have history of delays in speech and motor skills like neurodivergents. There is no telling how many schizophrenics are actually neurodivergents.



In the book, THE BIPOLAR CHILD by Demetri Paplos, oversensitivity to environmental influences was listed as one of the very common symptoms/traits of bipolar children. Learning disabilities was listed as one of the common symptoms/traits of bipolar children. They also listed Aspergers Syndrome as one of the medical conditions that tends to be misdiagnosed as bipolar.


It's common for many neurodivergents to have feelings of inadequacy. Feelings of insecurity and low self esteem may lead them to be very shy, not socialize with others, and be hypersensitive to criticism. They might feel dumb and/or ugly. Many of them tend to have feelings of confusion and uncertainty about who they are.They may believe that they need to depend on people to help them with certain things that they have difficulty with. They can appear to be a bit odd and unusual to others. Many of them tend to have emotional melt downs that is connected to being highly emotional and ultrasensitive. They may act out lot,having problems regulating their emotions and behavior. They can appear to be unstable. Many of them have problems with social skills due to problems with language processing,understanding emotional/social cues,and/or coordination. Overall, they are very complex and hard to pin down. This can lead to them as being diagnosed as having certain psychiatric disorders.

http://www.sunmoonastrology.com/displayForumTopic/content/266580226600677376


an example

My New Orleans,Louisiana born Black father was a neurodivergent with dyslexic,dyspraxic,adhd,autistic characteristics, and he was a diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. He had a very similar personality and temperament as me. Furthermore, he was a strong believer in Voodoo Magick. It seems that his grandmother was actually a Voodoo practitioner herself. She used snakes to put on porch to ward off negative spirits. Voodoo practitioners believe in the divinity of snakes and their power in protection. He was a metaphysically oriented neurodivergent who was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. He had many of the same neurodivergent issues....including issues with speech and eye contact could have easily got him labeled schizophrenic as well as his superstitiousness getting labeled schizophrenic too. Not to mention being black man born in 1941 wasn't easy for him. There is history of psychiatrists of overdiagnosing and misdiagnosing blacks as schizophrenic too. He was pretty much screwed as a metaphysically oriented neurodivergent black man.



shrugs.....I don't what else to do to explain myself.
I give up.
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
as an interesting aside, did you know that Melanie Reinhart, when she turns to doing horary, dispenses with using the asteroids and interprets much like any traditional horary astrologer does?

I have discussed horary with Melanie and have good reason to believe she is comfortable adjusting to a more traditional approach for that, but unless she has recently stated that she dispenses with using asteroids in horary, I should point out that I heard her refer to an asteroid connection in a horary chart discussion last year. So I don't think she completely dispenses with them, even for horary - and why should she if she notes alignments that mean something to her as the interpreting astrologer?
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 370

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Raymond,

Re: "Even now, psychotics are being used to treat symptoms of Autism."

Can you elaborate what you mean by this?

Psychotics are people that are suffering from psychosis. How are these people being used to treat symptoms of Autism?

I don't understand what you mean and am curious just how this works.

Peace

James
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Paul wrote:
as an interesting aside, did you know that Melanie Reinhart, when she turns to doing horary, dispenses with using the asteroids and interprets much like any traditional horary astrologer does?

I have discussed horary with Melanie and have good reason to believe she is comfortable adjusting to a more traditional approach for that, but unless she has recently stated that she dispenses with using asteroids in horary, I should point out that I heard her refer to an asteroid connection in a horary chart discussion last year. So I don't think she completely dispenses with them, even for horary - and why should she if she notes alignments that mean something to her as the interpreting astrologer?


Hi Deb

I'm referring to a comment she made once where she says that she only uses the asteroids if they appear pertinent to the matter at hand, and she went on to explicitly use horary as an example wherein she says that she uses traditional rulerships and judges accordingly, only noting the asteroids after this to fully flesh up a picture for herself.
(PS I certainly wasn't trying to misalign Melanie's comments so if I've gotten this wrong, then I retract it completely - I can only go by memory of what she said, perhaps I misunderstood)

The point I was trying to make that perhaps there is a place for everything - there is a place for the use of asteroids as being of near pivotal importance, and a place for where their use is limited, a place where perhaps the aspects are more crucial, and a place where houses and signs are more crucial.

EDIT
Perhaps it would have been more accurate had I said "dispenses with focusing on the asteroids", rather than saying using the asteroids. But as I say, if I'm incorrect on this then I've obviously confused what she meant and I stand corrected.
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's an aside, but I'd go along with that. Next time I see her I'll ask her (just out of interest) but I think she'd be happy enough with what you've written above.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raymond, I am always happy to see a convert to the sidereal zodiac like yourself. You have some interesting ideas, but since this is a forum and not a magazine, others like to read posts that are a little shorter than yours. My older eyes stall out when trying to read long paragraphs.

So to reach others with your ideas and thoughts, a few less words would work better. (I also am always having to find fewer words to express what I want to say on forums, and have to remind myself, "Therese, you are not wriiting an article for a magazine.")

Thanks for joining us!

Therese
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jill elinore



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
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Location: Worthing, West Sussex

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James

I think Raymond is referring to psychotic meds.
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 370

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Jill,

Oh, okay. That makes sense...

Thanks for the clarification, you must surely be right.

I am interpreting further that he perhaps means psychotropic drugs? That is something different as well.

Psychotic drugs sounds like you put the pill in your mouth and then the pill decides to go for your throat! Funny picture, anyway....

Peace

James
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
It's an aside, but I'd go along with that. Next time I see her I'll ask her (just out of interest) but I think she'd be happy enough with what you've written above.


Ok

If you speak to her soon and ask her, could you update the thread or PM me, I just don't like the thought of misquoting people.
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jill elinore



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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atlantean wrote:
Hello Jill,

Oh, okay. That makes sense...

Thanks for the clarification, you must surely be right.

I am interpreting further that he perhaps means psychotropic drugs? That is something different as well.

Psychotic drugs sounds like you put the pill in your mouth and then the pill decides to go for your throat! Funny picture, anyway....

Peace

James


Lol, I think the correct term is anti-psychotic drugs Smile
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Atlantean



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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Jill,

Re: "...anti-psychotic..."

That sounds the best yet! Thumbs up


James
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