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Mystery Chart Exercise March 11 2012
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for what it is worth i write fwiw.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/FWIW
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James-M wrote:
Quote:
i understand all this and it sounds as though you are concluding on the basis of all of this that jupiter is the dominant planet to chart 2, unlike chart 1 where it is rising..


Yes. In chart one Jupiter is close to the ASC but in a different WS house so there is no relationship by bound. Determining the Kurios in Chart 1 is problematic. Firstly, there are no planets in the 1st by WS and particularly in its bounds. The domicile ruler of the ASC (Saturn) falls in the 6th WS house and is therefore 'unfit for business'. The sources then suggest taking the domicile ruler of the Moon if it is fit for business ie in an angular or succedent Ws house. I am not clear why this should be chosen if it is not the sect light(?). In any case that gives us the Moon itself as the Kurios or chart ruler of Polk's chart while Mars is the oikodespotes (Domicile Master) of the sect light.

Mark
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
my understanding of the way directions work is one has to first look at the nature of how the 2 planets under question interact with one another in the chart under examination.. one planet directed to another by hard aspect doesn't immediately imply something bad based on my observation.. it depends largely on the relationship that exists between the 2 planets..


I believe i used the word "hypothetical."

Quote:
I used a hypothetical example


I did.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i believe i wanted to have a conversation, lol.
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margherita



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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
now back to the other part of my question - which planet emphasized - jupiter or saturn - has a stronger connection to acting or politics? this last part is the part where i note a reluctance on the part of everyone here to respond to directly as i have asked this 2 or 3 times with no response..


without entering in the Hellenistic (or Schmidt) method about which Mark already replied, I believe one should consider different planets about specific sectors.

If we consider acting I would say Venus (and Mercury) any doubt.
If you talk about the temperament maybe the rising Saturn (or in the first whole sign house if you prefer), but I would in every case consider Jupiter as lord of geniture, better phase and essential dignity.

Moreover, it's true it is out of sect too, but with Placidus houses has a better position, because it is far from an angle, which is better for an out of sect planet, in my opinion.

margherita
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks margherita,

it is interesting what you say and it is what i struggle with.. sometimes there are cross overs in what people do.. actors of today don't shy away from taking a role in politics necessarily, but it isn't there focus usually.

let me ask you this - if one was only to look at venus and mercury for chart 1 and chart and have to decide which chart was stronger on the basis of this, how would you define the stronger chart?

the reason i ask this is partly what you say, but the other part is that an astrologer has to decide if a planet next to an important angle while in detriment is weaker then a planet in it's fall in the 6th house using placidus, but having a degree of stronger planetary phase to sun.. how do you decide which venus is stronger for example? these are the kinds of questions that others might be able to answer quickly, but i am unable to do so.. if anything i would say i give greater relevance to chart 1 venus due it being on the midheaven angle and i am only address 1 of the 2 planets you associate with acting..


thoughts margherita or anyone else?
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GR



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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

While sect is important, it isn't a primary consideration, only one that modifies, in an adjectival manner, the more basic delineation of a planet, that of its zodiacal & horizontal positions and its relations with other planets.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks gabe,

if you feel like answering any more questions i am asking, that would be great. let me ask another one - do you think a planet is stronger then the sign? for example is saturns energy in pisces more about the planet or is it dominated by the sign?

maybe some think i am trying to get free astrology lessons here.. i am here to learn, first and foremost. i see these questions as issues that astrologers have to ask themselves and they have to make a decision on these kinds of questions that do need to be asked.. these are some of the subjective factors that go into weighing everything and i want to know how others do it.. i haven't come to any hard and fast positions on all this, but i appreciate gabes openness and stating what he thinks of sect consideration which was one of the questions i asked earlier in this thread..
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
thanks gabe,
if you feel like answering any more questions i am asking, that would be great. let me ask another one - do you think a planet is stronger then the sign? for example is saturns energy in pisces more about the planet or is it dominated by the sign?


You're welcome James.

Think of it this way, you are in a living room. Who has the ability to turn on the TV, you or the living room? Now, maybe it's your living room, so the TV is already set to all your favorite channels. Or maybe it's someone else's, and you have to endure watching some idiotic talking head show. Or maybe it's a prison cell, sans TV and occupied with an unsavory cellmate.
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margherita



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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
thanks margherita,

let me ask you this - if one was only to look at venus and mercury for chart 1 and chart and have to decide which chart was stronger on the basis of this, how would you define the stronger chart?


In my opinion Venus is not strong at all in the chart 1, because in detriment and combust, looking at the chart - without casting it - I don't know if it could be the the lady of nativity; Jupiter is angular too and in its fall. Honesty I would not do which planet I should choose Sad

In the n.2 Venus is better, because it is her best phase, visible and vespertine. It's not the lady of geniture, because in detriment and in the falling 6th, but surely makes the profession (consider that the 6th house is considered active for trades and professions- the 10th too obviously, but in the chart n.1 Venus is combust).

In every case- I don't want to add confusion, but Mercury is important because it rules on Moon and Mercury which are together and Venus is not too far in the same sign. In my opinion it should be something connected with political engagement and self expression through art,

margherita
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ea



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

These mystery charts are great learning experiences so a big Thank you to Tom for providing them, and a big Thank you to everybody who has shared their insights!

Now, there is one thing that bothers me a bit with the chart of Robert Redford, the mystery actor, and I'm a bit surprised that nobody has mentioned this.

I know that RR's chart is rated AA, but can't help wondering whether the time could be a couple minutes later. The Ascendant would then move into Aries and this would make Mars in Leo in the 5th house the ruler of the Ascendant. As much as I like RR, I don't really know that much about him, but Astro-databank tells us this, among other things:

"A poor student and often in trouble, he found his passion in art and baseball. "I grew up in a state of indescribable boredom - In grade school I hated being regimented. My mind wandered constantly. I'd amuse myself by sketching. My only outlet was sports. To alleviate the tedium I hung out with a pretty rough crowd in high school."

This would fit an Aries Ascendant with Mars in the 5th, I think.

With the Ascendant in Aries the MC would move into Capricorn and the ruler, Saturn, would move into the twelfth by whole signs.

What do you think?
ea

PS.
A humble wish, if I may present: please try to avoid charts with very early or very late Ascendants as there will always be the doubt about which sign is the right one.
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I know that RR's chart is rated AA, but can't help wondering whether the time could be a couple minutes later.


Birth times are always problematic. Rodden's system is quite possibly the best we can do. AA means birth record in hand. Sure it could be off. Clocks are off, people make mistakes etc. So it is certainly possible that he could have Mars in 5 ruling the ASC. But it is also possible that this is fine or it is timed a little sooner than the birth. Besides the convenience of Mars ruling the ASC in 5, what else would that change? Then there is the problem that people don't like rectified charts. Also Mars is in the 5th quadrant house and the 6th whole sign house. So the whole sign folks don't think this matters at all. No matter how it is done, there will be problems. This does not even take into consideration that Redford loved sports but apparently didn't play well enough to make a career out of it. That's me on both counts and I don't have Mars ruling 1 in 5 - not even close.

If I or anyone else starts eliminating everything that could cause a problem in order to find the perfect set of charts, there might be precious few to choose from. And there isn't a whole lot riding on the outcome. People look at the charts, try to figure out a few things and submit their answers, and in the process have some fun. That's it, so if this or that chart turns out to be incorrect and as a result someone who might have got it right instead gets it wrong, so what? Unless there is some serious money bet on this, spending an inordinate amount of time on making sure all the charts are "just so" doesn't seem like it's worth the effort.
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ea



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

You are so right, and I didn't mean to criticize, so forgive me if it came across as such. I guess this is more of a problem of my own, starting to doubt charts with an early or a late ascendant. Probably reveals my lack of competence when it comes to delineate charts Confused. Be it as it may, I really enjoy your mystery charts and the discussions about them, so actually it doesn't really matter whether the charts are correct or not. So a big Thank you, and I'm looking forward to the next one.

ea
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gabe,

thanks for your analogy. it is an interesting one! i understand creating a hierarchy for the power of a planet hinges on the sign and house position, but by the sound of your analogy it seems to imply the planet is very much subject to sign and house position to the point it doesn't have much of a say in anything unless it finds itself in it's own sign, and or, a house favourable to it.. in the example of chart 2, saturn rising is like a non event, or worse, a position that is essentially ineffective and all under the domain of jupiter.. for me that is how it sounds.. what do you think?

i was reading up on redford as i was motivated to look more closely at his life to see how some of this astrology played out.. i was partly motivated by ea's comments on the degree of the ascendant and after running some important events in redfords life to transits, solar arcs and primary directions i would say the degree of the ascendant and midheaven look correct and most likely to be very close to what they are in the chart here.. one article that i happened to stumble on - google is great) is an article on redfords personal life involving his children.. his first child died at approx 2 months while his 2nd child suffered from some serious health issues as well. i used these events to take a closer look at redfords chart.. here is one of the articles that some might find interesting, if they want to explore more of this. http://www.jrifilms.org/housekeep.htm

what this tells me is that the moon is indeed applying to a powerful saturn that has direct bearing on his family however you want to approach it astrologically - cancer 5th house cusp, and etc. etc.

margherita,


thanks for your additional comments here.. i can see how you have come to this conclusion on venus being stronger in chart 2 then in chart 1.. what i get from this is that a planet on an angle - venus in chart 1 does not have the strength given it being under the suns beams primarily.. if i am reading this correctly, the way that you weigh these considerations is based more on planetary phase then on whether the planet sits closely to an important angle.. i find this interesting and it gives me something to ponder as i have always thought that a planet on an angle was given much greater importance regardless of the considerations you appear to be emphasizing..
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GR



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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
gabe,

thanks for your analogy. it is an interesting one! i understand creating a hierarchy for the power of a planet hinges on the sign and house position, but by the sound of your analogy it seems to imply the planet is very much subject to sign and house position to the point it doesn't have much of a say in anything unless it finds itself in it's own sign, and or, a house favourable to it.. in the example of chart 2, saturn rising is like a non event, or worse, a position that is essentially ineffective and all under the domain of jupiter.. for me that is how it sounds.. what do you think?


I think you're confusing the effectiveness or lack thereof of Saturn with whether it is the Kurios(Lord) of the chart, which is itself a specific office that requires particular conditions to hold. Saturn fails in this regard, but that is a different thing than to say it is ineffectual. While it is not in an angle by division, and thus not forcibly compelled to act in the native's life, it is angular by the signs, and thus can "do business". The way Saturn is going to do business with be represented by its zodiacal location & movement, and its interactions with other planets. Being that it is in a degree where it is in none of its places, Saturn cannot supply itself with its own objects in the native's life to act upon; it requires and is dependant on the lords of that degree for those objects, namely Jupiter. Saturn is retrograde, and as such, will take back the results of its actions. You've already noted the death of the first child and sickness of the second; he has had at least 3 more IIRC, 2 with the first wife, and one with his second. So he was clearly destined to have children, and the Moon's and Jupiter's applications to Saturn, I think, have to do with that, along with the angularity by sign of Venus, as well.
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Last edited by GR on Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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