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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Mystery Chart Exercise March 11 2012
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
[
You're ruling out an incredible number of people with this statement, not just Polk. If I can be frank, it seems a little unfair and even prejudicial to be making judgements on this person based on their chart like this. You can't see any evidence of putting others before himself? Do you mean astrological evidence? Or evidence from wikipedia? What kind of evidence are you referring to?



'Ruling out'? If this is in relation to the 4th quadrant comment you will see it is just one factor amongst others one might consider as to this personís s dispositions and orientations.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RE: Billy Carter and fame

As I mentioned in the post above I tend to forget that everyone at Skyscript hasn't been here as long as I have and to add to that, I tend to forget everyone here isn't my age. I assumed every American would be familiar with Billy Carter, but his brother's administration ended over 30 years ago, and Billy died 24 years ago, and to me, none of that seems all that long ago, but it was.

I don't know what definition of the word "fame" that others use, but to me it means very well known. Billy Carter was famous by any reasonable understanding of that word. Fame can be divided into good and bad by using "infamy" to indicate fame, but generally we don't make moral judgments with fame. Al Capone was famous. Timothy McVeigh was famous. Pope John Paul II was famous.

Carter was no Capone or McVeigh, but he didn't handle his fame very well and he was famous for negative things and even the not negative was given a negative spin and called "color." But Billy was famous while he lived.
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not many people over 50 in the UK would have heard of Billy Carter, his brother Jimmy may get double figures percentage wise.

With these Mystery Charts it's better to use people less well known. I would probably have seen the Brubeck chart before and maybe Redford's, and we know enough about memory now to know how even a fleeting look can remain encoded in the semantic memory.
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margherita



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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
RE: Billy Carter and fame

As I mentioned in the post above I tend to forget that everyone at Skyscript hasn't been here as long as I have and to add to that, I tend to forget everyone here isn't my age. I assumed every American would be familiar with Billy Carter, but his brother's administration ended over 30 years ago, and Billy died 24 years ago, and to me, none of that seems all that long ago, but it was.


It was not my intention to criticize your choice. The game was perfect.

What I meant it is just that it's impossible to comment the chart after knowing the native's identity for me, because Billy Carter is totally unknown here, at least now, I don't know 25 years ago. For Robert Redford I could say more because he is known everywhere- or you could choose someone like Antonio Banderas Smile

People can better visualize the chart they have in front, I don't know if I explained what I meant.

in every case for me everything is ok, I have no problem with whatever chart you want to choose.

margherita
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magherita,

My remarks were just in general. In fact I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote them. I wasn't thinking of anyone in particular. I'm glad you enjoyed the exercise and I like Antonio Banderas, too. Wink

Tom
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anyone is wondering what happened to the prolonged-to-the-point-of-silly discussion about a modern source of reference, I have removed it, and all comments that perpetuated it, leaving only the references that are reasonable within this, the forum for discussion of traditional techniques.

If anyone is uncertain about what the remit of this forum is, please read this post where Tom explains it clearly.Please read before posting in this forum
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margherita wrote:

Quote:
I agree with Gabe.

I would take Mars as almuten on vital places (Ibn Ezra) but Jupiter as lord of the chart, being in its dignities.

Saturn except to be in angle, has very little power to do something good


I think we are comparing apples and pears here as Gabe and I were discussing an assessment of the chart using a distinctly hellenistic approach using whole sign houses. In particular we were exploring the hellenistic technique of identification of the Kurios or Master of the Nativity. In that technique planets in cadent whole sign houses would not be seen as 'fit for business' as the Master of the Nativity. They would therefore not be candidates for the Kurios. Our discussion of Saturn was specifically because it is in the 1st house using WS houses. However, it is clearly in a less active or busy part of the house as it is far removed from the angle.

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

saturn is less removed from the angle then say jupiter or moon are from the angles in chart 2.. further more the moon is applying directly to this same saturn, as opposed to it applying to jupiter for example.. it is true saturn is in the sign pisces, ruled by jupiter and therefore jupiter would have more power, but really and this is part of my ongoing question to people here - what do you think has more power? a planet on an angle, or the ruler of that planet? if you go by morins words who doesn't use whole signs - he would say the planet itself is where the power is..

the way i see it there is a huge amount of subjectivity built into our views whereby we can nod our heads in agreement about something after the fact, but it is much more complicated to do this before the fact of our knowing who the chart belongs to.. just my 2c's and please don't take anything i say personally as it is again a general observation on how so much of what astrologers do has a built in subjective rationale that most seem to take for granted.. cheers james
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margherita



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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Margherita wrote:

I think we are comparing apples and pears here as Gabe and I were discussing an assessment of the chart using a distinctly hellenistic approach using whole sign houses.
Mark


In effect it was you who mentioned Kurios as listed by Schmidt (or Hand I don't remember) and I just believed that Gabe was talking about the Lord of Geniture without mentioning a particular astrological period or school of thought.

Evidently I hastily read and I did not pick the word Hellenistic, sorry, especially because here it is not a problem of whole-sign houses or not, here Saturn is quite enough near to the Ascendant to be in an angle - more than 5 degrees but not so far from them.

And as Gabe said this Saturn is out of sect, retrograde, peregrine. I believe whoever - Hellenistic astrologer or not- would notice.

In every case if I was too hasty in replying, forgive me Smile

margherita
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Last edited by margherita on Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jupiter is out of sect too fwiw.. for me it is a case of how one decides which planet is more powerful and which planet would have more of an association with acting verses politics... anyone care to comment on this, i would enjoy seeing what they have to say.. thanks.
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margherita wrote:
Quote:
In every case if I was too hasty in replying, forgive me


No need for that. I was just clarifying where I think Gabe and I were coming from. Your comments on Ibn Ezra are interesting.

Quote:
And as Gabe said this Saturn is out of sect, retrograde, peregrine. I believe whoever - Hellenistic astrologer or not- would notice.


Quite so. Plus even with whole sign houses it is less powerful in the first due to its distance from the ASC degree.

One point I have been discussing privately by PM with someone is should planetary placement always take precedence over rulership? My understanding is that medieval astrology strongly emphasizes this. This chart is an interesting case since if you do use WS Saturn is in the domcile and house of Jupiter and Jupiter is aspecting Saturn.

I may be mistaken but I have formed the impression hellenistic astrology puts as much focus on planetary rulers.

What do others think?

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark Wrote:

Quote:
One point I have been discussing privately by PM with someone is should planetary placement always take precedence over rulership? My understanding is that medieval astrology strongly emphasizes this.


I kind of lost track of which Saturn is being discussed in which chart, so my comments have nothing to do with this part of the discussion. However only today I responded to a similar question, and thought I'd drop in my two cents.

I don't know about medieval astrology and what it may or may not say on the matter, but Morin says plenty and as usual gives reasons. His point is that position takes priority over rulership due to immediacy and that the house ruled by the planet is affected but only secondarily. He may use the word "stronger," but I'm going to quibble with that while promoting his point.

According to Morin if a planet in a house is affected by direction, or transit or return the affairs of the house occupied are what is first noticed and the affairs of the house ruled are affected as well but secondarily. I would add that the secondary effects could be as strong and possibly stronger, but they are still secondary.

I used a hypothetical example of the Moon in 7, let's say a man's chart, ruling 11. And let's say the Moon is afflicted by a direction. That direction would affect 7th house matters first and bring in 11th house as a result. Moon would represent the spouse and then we'll further stipulate the hard aspect by direction indicates a serious illness to the spouse. This illness might result in her children having to care for her. The 11th is the 5th of the 7th and in Morin's system since it is opposite the 5th would also indicate the children of the native. This care-giving could be a serious problem for the children, but it is the secondary effect of the illness: no illness = no care-giving.

So the house ruled by the Moon is affected and that effect could be a powerful one on the affairs of that house, but it is the secondary result of the direction to the 7th house Moon. This has little to do with strength of impact on the houses, and more to do with cause and effect.

It also demonstrates that limiting the use of the Moon to the places where it has analogy can give a great deal more precision (if it works consistently). The Moon in the 7th cannot be the mother or the sister, but can be daughters or female friends. A female friend might be a caregiver in this scenario, too. It can't be servants, or aunts, or female clergy. It is most likely the wife and secondarily female partners or lawsuits from women.

The logic is impeccable, but the track record has not been examined in depth, yet.
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M
Quote:
jupiter is out of sect too fwiw.. for me it is a case of how one decides which planet is more powerful and which planet would have more of an association with acting verses politics... anyone care to comment on this, i would enjoy seeing what they have to say.. thanks.


True Jupiter is out of sect. You are asking why choose it for career rather than say Saturn? Lets review what does it have going for it?

Chart No. 2



You are right Jupiter is not in the ideal solar phase or in sect but it is still strong here nonetheless.

1 Jupiter is in a masculine sign fitting its sect
2 Jupiter is the most elevated planet in the chart.
3 Jupiter is in its sign of domicile rulership
4 Jupiter is trigon ruler of the fire signs in a night chart
5 Jupiter is the the 10th WS house
6 Jupiter is ruler of the MC
7 Jupiter is the Kurios or Lord of the Nativity

The key determinant here is surely house placements and rulerships. Jupiter (Lord of the Nativity) is in the 10th WS house indicating a Jupiterian career. That combined with the angular in sect Moon (in triplicity) and Mercury in a whole sign relationship to Jupiter by square seems to add to this prominence.

Mark





Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks mark,

i understand all this and it sounds as though you are concluding on the basis of all of this that jupiter is the dominant planet to chart 2, unlike chart 1 where it is rising.. at least jupiter in chart 2 has greater bearing on the midheaven which is said to oversee one's career in some significant manner.. now back to the other part of my question - which planet emphasized - jupiter or saturn - has a stronger connection to acting or politics? this last part is the part where i note a reluctance on the part of everyone here to respond to directly as i have asked this 2 or 3 times with no response..

tom

my understanding of the way directions work is one has to first look at the nature of how the 2 planets under question interact with one another in the chart under examination.. one planet directed to another by hard aspect doesn't immediately imply something bad based on my observation.. it depends largely on the relationship that exists between the 2 planets.. perhaps others will comment on this too as it is an ongoing question astrologers have to ask themselves and again a weighing consideration with many subjective elements to it. i mention all this in relation to your views on morins approach. i have yet to read book 22, which i plan on doing in the next while..
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:

fwiw

Confused
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