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Mystery Chart Exercise March 11 2012
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i wish more folks were involved in this.. obviously it doesn't mean too much to them and we are deprived of their astrological insights..

i continue to think astrology is tricky and it is not easy to get a definitive answer on many things like what a persons vocation is, but i would like to be wrong on this.. i think chart 1 and 2 have a lot going for them and either could be an actor, but i have opt for 1 more then 2 as the actor.

what is the basis for this? well ascendant ruler is a part of it as is planets on angles. in chart 1 ascendant ruler is in the 5th and rules the jupiter.. jupiter rising is a strong place in a diurnal chart.. chart 2 has ascendant ruler jupiter in the 9th or 10th house depending on how you want to think of house systems... what are the planets, signs and houses for acting and what are they for being a politician? i know there is cross over..

i mostly think moon for politician, but jupiter seems to have a connection to the political process, so jupiter might factor in strongly as well.. mercury must on some level too.. not sure where saturn comes into all this..

chart 2 has moon applying to saturn rising and is a nocturnal chart.. moon is therefore strong while i also think saturn is strong as is jupiter at top of t square in the 9th or 10th house.. if i only go on the basis of diurnal verses nocturnal chart 2 as politician could make sense as it puts more emphasis on the moon and nocturnal planets, then jupiter per say... jupiter is at the venus-saturn midpoint in this chart as well..

i will continue to hold on chart 1 for actor and chart 2 for politician, but it is not a sure thing by a long shot!

this leaves me with chart 3 for business executive... i am mostly thinking moon in scorpio - opp venus in taurus with cap rising sounds more business oriented, but if it is the actor, oh well!!! most all the planets are rising in the east and nothing in the western hemisphere except venus.. looking at it this way, i have to throw my hands up in the air and say it could be the actor too, lol.. oh well.. i will stick with my answers for now... all 3 charts sort of have a focal jupiter and moon..

chart 1 has an additional venus and sun perhaps.. chart 2 an additional saturn, while chart 3 has mercury in a wide aspect to the i.c. so actor - chart 1, politician chart 2 and bus exec chart 3.. chart 3 has saturn as oriental planet rising ahead of sun and it also rules the ascendant.. that sounds more business like to me..
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
OK time to spill the beans a little. Of the two charts that are not the actor, one is a politician and one is a business executive. Both have something very similar in their backgrounds. And I think it is fair to say that the business executive, although well known, is not known for that.




Chart 3 is the politician who gets a lot of help from his partner as 7th lord is in the 10th and 10th lord in the exaltation sign of the 7th.It could be some one like Kevin Rudd, the queensland politician and former PM of Australia.

I will leave out the chart 2 so that I am not wrong in all three
Secret


PD
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
OK time to spill the beans a little. Of the two charts that are not the actor, one is a politician and one is a business executive. Both have something very similar in their backgrounds. And I think it is fair to say that the business executive, although well known, is not known for that.


Ok I actually think this example is much tougher, but I can't help but notice that you say the other two are similar in their profession. And two charts here have Capricorn rising and Jupiter in the 1st - charts 1 and 3.

However although that's interesting my real reason why I'll tentatively choose Chart 2 is that, like with my logic before, the Sun is trine the MC - and I"m taking the Sun to be indicative of modern actors (celebrities essentially). I also quite like that Jupiter rules both this person's outward appearance and career, which sounds fitting for an actor.

Also this is the only chart where mercury isn't somehow afflicted - in the first chart it is angular but ill dignified, in the third chart it is combust.

My second choice for the actor would be chart one. Despite being ill dignified, I can't ignore that Mercury is in the 10th house, which again would suggest actor to me.

Tbh I'm all but guessing here. My logic is very fragile for assigning any of these as actors. I'm not really sure what it would take to be an actor but I'm guessing a love of the spotlight and a mutable nature, and it's these things more than anything that make me think Chart 2.

I just don't know about chart 3. If you said gambler or something I might stick to chart 3. Maybe that describes a politician?
My thoughts are with that angular MC mercury if it is not the actor, which I don't think it is, then perhaps it is the politican - my guess is having a corrupted mercury would make for a good politican!

I'm torn between charts one and two but I'll go for chart 2.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think the reason we are not hearing from the others as these 3 charts are more challenging with regard to assigning a particular planetary phase as key for actor or politician and the fact there are some similarities between actors and politicians.. i was going to make the joke politicians are like bad actors, but someone else beat me to it and it is not really a fair characterization however much fun it is to poke fun with politicians.. the other thing that occurred to me is that so often politicians are actually lawyers, so looking for a politician signature will often imply looking for a lawyer signature.. they don't like people making jokes about there profession either!! apparently it is only okay to poke fun of astrologers, lol..

i am thinking a lawyer is more mercury/mars, but this is just one angle of it.. a strong 7th house might be another one, along with libra placements.. a strong mercury would definitely be an asset.. one might be tempted to say chart 2 has a stronger mercury then chart 1 which would back up my shaky theories here, lol...

since none of the planetary phase experts are commenting on this chart from this angle, i am going to with the caveat i am not an expert on looking at the chart from this angle by a long shot.. what i do know is vespertine describes a planet which sets in the west after the sun and is the reverse of matutine a planet that rises in the east ahead of the sun.. this is the rough extent of my knowledge on this.. i know ptolemy is credited with passing on the idea of a planet 'oriental' or rising ahead of the sun as a vocational indicator.. this would be mars in chart 1 and 2 with saturn in chart 3.. my understanding is that a consideration of diurnal verse nocturnal chart is fundamental to this analysis too.. okay, here is my planetary phase take on these charts mixed with diurnal/nocturnal chart considerations..

chart 1 - diurnal chart which makes a focus diurnal planets sun, saturn and jupiter.. saturn is stronger then jupiter according to my understanding of planetary phase.. sun is strong near the midheaven, but planetary phase can't be considered with sun! mars and moon are quite strong by planetary phase but in a diurnal chart this has to be offset somehow.. they are also both in nocturnal signs.. mercury is operating nocturnally, but in a strong house position and in a diurnal sign - sag..

chart 2 - nocturnal chart makes a focus on nocturnal planets - moon, venus and mars. mercury is operating in a nocturnal manner behind sun vespertine, in a nocturnal sign and quite strong from my read.. venus is vespertine to sun as well, less distance away, but still in a nocturnal sign and must be considered strong in a nocturnal chart.. mars is matutine to sun and in a diurnal sign - leo, but strong otherwise.. all in all my read is that mercury is especially strong in this chart and the planet moon has just separated from additionally.. moon is ruled by mercury as is venus, so mercury strong here... saturn and jupiter would be considered 2ndary but i will comment how i see them based on planetary phase and diurnal/nocturnal.. saturn is very strong in this chart if you put aside it being a diurnal planet ( apparently vedic sees saturn as more nocturnal) and is in a nocturnal sign, in the ascendant in a matutine position to sun and the planet the moon directly applies to.. saturn has to be considered very strong in this chart.. jupiter is in a diurnal sign in it's own house ruling the midheaven but out of sect like saturn.. it is vespertine to the sun though, so maybe this also strengthens it.. shorely( as jim thompson would say) i have said enough here for others to rope me up and throw in in astrology jail, lol...

chart 3 - nocturnal chart with moon in nocturnal sign most elevated body in the chart as well, so a strong moon the way i see it.. it and venus are both vespertine to the sun which strengthens them in a nocturnal chart, while venus is also in a nocturnal sign. mars on the other hand is matutine sun in a diurnal sign.. the above and below the horizon is also a consideration for diurnal verses nocturnal charts with the nocturnal planets supposedly working better above the horizon while the diurnal are better below... it is the reverse in a diurnal chart..

my quick take on using this planetary phase in connection to diurnal/nocturnal considerations for these 3 charts narrowing it down to only one planet is this.

chart 1 - sun and jupiter - close tie for strongest body in the chart.
chart 2 - mercury
chart 3 - moon

feedback from the planetary phase experts??

continuing on with my whacked out astro ideas i wanted to point out an interesting thought i had connected to the planetary containment ideas i mentioned in the previous exercise... i do think sun, moon and ascendant are always key considerations to a chart.. if one looks at how these points are contained in each of the chart some interesting thoughts come up..

containments
chart 1 and 2 sun contained by venus/mars
chart 3 sun contained by mercury/saturn

chart 1 moon contained by mars/saturn
chart 2 moon ........... jupiter/mercury
chart 3 moon............... mars/venus

chart 1 ascendant contained by jupiter/mercury
chart 2 - ...................... saturn/mars
chart 3 .......................... jupiter/mars

adding midheaven into this
chart 1 midheaven contained by venus/mercury
chart 2 .................................. jupiter/saturn
chart 3 ................................... mercury/venus

i will comment on this after i find out who all 3 charts are!
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's give it a try Smile

Chart no. 3 is a politician, because:

- the chart luminary(the Moon) is in the angle of the 10th by division, applying to the lady of the 10th, Venus which is herself angular in the 4th. This is a strong accentuation of the career/fame/prominence/authority issues, ass well as a strong indicator of the opposition to his authority/career(the moon as the ruler of the 7th).

- the ruler of the ascendant, Saturn is a superior planet making a phasis within 7 days after birth and hence very strong/vigorous, all the while ruling the midheaven by exaltation and triplicity. This man's primary motivation seeks to understand/influence the structure/established order(Saturn) of the society by his participation, mainly by the expression of new ideas, criticism of the existing order, etc.(Saturn in the 3rd).

- Jupiter, another superior planet representing the 'laws' is oriental and strongly advancing in the 1st(actually, the strongest planet in the chart!), applying to Saturn by sextile with strong mutual reception, thus effectively and strongly connecting the natural rulerships of the both superiors(social/political issues) with the matters of fulfilling the primary motivation of the native. A strong emphasis on the matters on the 1st/3rd houses signified by exchanged positions of Jupiter/Saturn underscores his need for articulation of ideas pertaining to socio - political structure of the society in written and spoken word.

- the POF as an alternative ascendant is in the Gemini in the 6th whole sign/house, but its ruler Mercury in Aries is in the 3rd and it also rules the 9th(Mercury is the term ruler of the ascendant as well) so this bring the issues of the spoken/written word to the fore, in the context of what one does; both Gemini and Aries are masculine signs, indicating a rather active approach to life. This man is an initiator, he tries to make things happen, he doesn't passively wait for them to occur. His ideas/manner of expression are controversial and initiating conflicts, because Mars disposes Mercury and is oriental(the third superior in the suitable position), pretty strong in the 11th house by division. Mars is the ruler of manners, because he also disposes the Moon.

- Saturn is in the 10th from fortune, indicating a prominent person and a prominent profession through the ideas expressed in the 3rd which should be rather conservative/defensive in nature(Saturn).

Anxiously waiting to read Tom's revelation of the mystery Very Happy

Goran
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but I can't help but notice that you say the other two are similar in their profession.


I said they had something similar in their backgrounds. In other words their backgrounds have something in common.

@James The saying is: "Politics is show business for ugly people." Acting and politics are quite a bit different though. Politics wasn't always about putting on an act. It is arguable that this is the result of either FDR's Fireside Chats, or JFK's administration. He and his family were considered glamorous like movie stars. "Camelot" didn't come until after his death. That word was first used to describe the administration by Jackie in a TV interview well after the assassination.


Last edited by Tom on Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom, I haven't time to read this thread yet and have only been able to spend 1 minute to look at all three charts, but by a quick glance no 3 looks like the chart of the actor, because it has MC and 5th ruler Venus angular and strong in dignity, with the Moon in the 10th applying closely to it by opposition. 5th house is good for actors, so is Venus, so is the Moon which is the most changeable of all the planets. I will probably find more or may change my mind when I look again - will try to catch up with the thread first,
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Nixx



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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,

When are you going to give the answer to this one?

I would like a few more days to think about it. At the moment any combination would not give me the surprise factor.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll sit on it for a while. There is no rush.
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
I'll sit on it for a while. There is no rush.


Good. I still haven't had time to study these charts and would like a bit time to work up delineations on them all.

Looking at similar significators in occupations I would expect politicians to have much more in common with lawyers and business people than actors. A high proportion of elected politicians have a background in one of these areas.

Unfortunately, that makes separating the astrological signature for a successful business person or lawyer and a politician harder to distinguish than it might seem at first.

For example in the current US Congress out of 100 Senators and 435 members of the House of Representatives 225 (168 Representatives and 57 Senators) list the law as their occupational background. The next largest grouping listed in Congress is those with a business background: 201 (175 Representatives and 27 Senators) list business as their occupational background.

In the current United Kingdom Parliament the breakdown by occupational background is as follows:

13.8% lawyers (Barristers and Solicitors)
7.9% Teacher/Lecturers
6.1 Publisher/Journalist.
2.9% Civil service/Local Government employee
25.0% Business
14.5% Politician/Political organizer.

Just thought people might find this more factual perspective interesting when examining political charts.

Mark
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varuna2



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Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

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margherita



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Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The actor in my opinion is n.3, same reason as Deborah, Venus has a better condition. Moreover the Moon in Scorpio in angular house likes to be at the centre of the world (no source, just experience from other charts)

And I agree with Mark, in more recent times it's difficult to see real differences between actors and politicians, the latter should go in TV, they are invited everywhere.

Tom was very nasty this time,

margherita
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not worried about distinguishing between the actor and the politician - actors are 'creatives' whereas politicians are driven by causes or the need to gather and exercise power. Actors need to be fluid and adaptable, but politicians need to be fixed in their goals yet able to negotiate and argue and use rhetoric. To me the problem is distinguishing between the politican and the business-man because they usually share the same drives.

This is a much harder challenge than the last one Tom, because there we had three distinct types of professions. At the moment I'm wavering between charts 2 and 3 for the actor - looking again, I can't help noticing that in chart 2 the Sun is especially creative in its own sign and on the trine of the MC; and Venus, Mercury and the Moon are all in good phase and make a square from the 6th house to the MC ruler Jupiter. I still have in mind that I recently quoted Ptolemy for saying that Mercury and Venus together produce musicians, but the full quote includes actors too. It reads (more fully)

Quote:
Again, when two planets are found to rule action, if Mercury and Venus take the rulership, they bring about action expressed by the arts of the Muses, musical instruments, melodies, or poems, and rhythm, particularly when they have exchanged places. For they produce workers in the theatre, actors, dealers in slaves, makers of musical instruments, members of the chorus, makers of strings, painters, dancers, weavers, and wax-moulders. and again, if Saturn testifies to them, he produces those in the aforesaid callings, as well as dealers in feminine finery. If Jupiter testifies, he produces lawyers, supervisors of counting houses,18 public officers, teachers of children, leaders of the populace.(IV.4)
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/4A*.html#4


So I'm keeping chart 3 as my actor, with chart 2 as a viable alternative, but ruling chart 1 out for the actor because I have decided that is definitely a statesman or person with extensive business contacts who is looked up to as a superior, taken seriously, involved in 'dealings', and not to be messed with. That's the only chart I have given much thought to so far so I'll come back on that later when I've decided if it's possible to tell the difference between commercial business or public politics - I'm not sure it is, so I might have to guess between them, but I'll give my reasoning on why I don't think it's the actor later.

BTW, hope we can have plenty of time for this Tom because I have to fit this into coffee-breaks.
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
but I can't help but notice that you say the other two are similar in their profession.


[color=darkblue]I said they had something similar in their backgrounds. In other words their backgrounds have something in common.


Tom

Right, I actually didn't mean that you explicitly said it, I meant that you said the other two were a businessman and politician, which, in my mind, are very similar in their profession - similar enough compared to, say, an actor.
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jill elinore



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Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im thinking chart 2 is the actor, possibly comedy actor. Using whole sign houses, dignified jupiter is placed in 10 (comedy?); moon (ruling 5) close to dignified mercury (wordsmith) plus venus in 7 (good looking), plus the leo planets. Im thinking, big personality but clever too (virgo planets).

Have we been told the gender yet?
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