CA vol I: ch.19 - aspects
Part VI of Deborah Houlding's annotated edition of Lilly's Christian Astrology, covering pages 105-114 |
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Konrad
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:29 am Post subject: |
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Hi Martin,
that method of finding the ruler of the year intrigues me. What exactly are the procedures that helped you arrive at Saturn, Mercury and Venus as potential lords of the year? |
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Atlantean
Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 300
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Hello
Interesting discussion...
I wanted to also comment to Therese.
If we use the (Q2) Mean Quotidian progression of that Solar Return to the date of the incident, we have Pluto at the Midheaven and Saturn at the Descendant. ie. Saturn-Pluto paran square... Additionally, (using Topocentric) we have the South Node right on the 3rd House cusp. (malefics with the 3rd cusp, common for accidents)
Take care
James |
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varuna2
Joined: 20 Feb 2012
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Location: Lemuria
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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delete
Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 5:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Martin Gansten
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Konrad wrote: | | that method of finding the ruler of the year intrigues me. What exactly are the procedures that helped you arrive at Saturn, Mercury and Venus as potential lords of the year? |
There are slightly different rules for 'problem cases' in different texts, but the basic five candidates are:
1. the domicile ruler of the profected ascendant;
2. the domicile ruler of the ascendant of the revolution;
3. the (main) triplicity ruler of the ascendant of the revolution;
4. the domicile ruler of the sect luminary of the revolution;
5. the domicile ruler of the ascendant of the radix.
A planet aspecting the ascendant of the revolution is always preferred to one not aspecting it. If several planets aspect, the one that is stronger and/or has more testimonies is preferred.
In Prince Johan's revolution, Venus has the rulership listed under points 1, 2 and 5, while points 3 and 4 go to Saturn and Mercury, respectively. |
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Konrad
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, nice one. Thanks.
Did the technique then involve looking at the ingresses and stationings of this lord/lady to time things just as the more standard version of Lord of the Year would be looked at? |
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Therese Hamilton
Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Varuna2 wrote:
| Quote: | | Those Equal houses are nice for showing the cusp points, but the problem for me is that they do not put the planets in the houses which I would expect them to be in with whole signs. For example, the Saturn is in the 6th house in the natal and navamsha of those Equal sign charts (rather than the 7th). |
Yes, I know that is a problem with the way the charts are printed. I make a mental adjustment, making the "cusp" the center of a house, so planets within 15 degrees on either side of the cusp are in that house. I don't print charts with house numbers as these would be wrong. It's easy to visualize whole sign houses for those who use them.
I am really enjoying the professional level of the discussion on Prince Frisco's chart. I don't expect much from Jupiter's aspect in the revolution chart, however, since it's the lord of the 6th in both natal and revolution charts. The revolution Mars by its aspect highlights the natal opposition of Saturn in its fall in Aries opposing the Ascendant, 12th lord, and ascendant lord.
This is how the western solar return chart works. The natal planets that come to the angles in the solar return chart are activated during that year. We have the debilitated Saturn (being buried, suffocation as Martin pointed out) coming to the fore in the chart for this year. So we are seeing both the Hellenistic principles and western sidereal principles working in this chart.
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Martin Gansten
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Konrad wrote: | Ok, nice one. Thanks.
Did the technique then involve looking at the ingresses and stationings of this lord/lady to time things just as the more standard version of Lord of the Year would be looked at? |
Offhand, I can't recall seeing this mentioned in a Sanskrit text, but I have not read all there is to read by a long way. In any case, my feeling is that some parts of Persian lore may have survived only in the Arabic texts that have come down to us, and others only in the Sanskrit texts (while some material may be lost for good). So in order to get a well-rounded astrological education, all you need is a working knowledge of Greek, Sanskrit, Arabic and Latin, good health to keep you going, and a nice private income for life.  |
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Martin Gansten
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Therese Hamilton wrote: | | This is how the western solar return chart works. The natal planets that come to the angles in the solar return chart are activated during that year. |
When you say 'western solar return', are you referring to Fagan and his school? I ask because even in the west, the use of revolutions (as they were called) was established long before the 20th century. (And if you focus on the natal angles rather than those of the revolution, the tropical/sidereal difference won't matter much.) |
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Therese Hamilton
Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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Martin Gansten wrote:
| Quote: | | When you say 'western solar return', are you referring to Fagan and his school? |
Yes, this was Cyril Fagan's big discovery, the sidereal solar return. (SSR)
| Quote: | | I ask because even in the west, the use of revolutions (as they were called) was established long before the 20th century. (And if you focus on the natal angles rather than those of the revolution, the tropical/sidereal difference won't matter much.) |
As I don't have time to check the texts right now, did these revolutons focus on which natal planets came to the solar return angles? This is the principle of the Fagan school's return charts. The chart form I used was designed by siderealist Matthew Quellas to highlight the solar return chart and its angles. This is why he placed the natal chart on the inner wheel with the solar return angles as the primary chart structure.
The Fagan school would not base predictions on solar return transits to natal angles alone since the solar return angles are the points of greatest importance. These angles, of course, are different in the tropical and sidereally timed revolutions, and different natal planets will be brought to the angles. Tropical astrologer Robert Hand and others have found the sidereal timing of return charts to give more accurate angles for prediction. The Moon's longitude will also be quite different in these two types of returns.
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Martin Gansten
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| Therese Hamilton wrote: | | Yes, this was Cyril Fagan's big discovery, the sidereal solar return. (SSR) |
Right. Perhaps 'western solar return' is a little too generic a term for this, even on the sidereal forum. Incidentally, the idea of using sidereal revolutions goes back a long way even in the west – see the quotation from Francesco Giuntini here.
The Persians, who developed the technique of annual revolutions, used a sidereal year, and that is the year definition still present in some works preserved in the Latin, such as The Book of Aristotle.
| Quote: | | As I don't have time to check the texts right now, did these revolutons focus on which natal planets came to the solar return angles? |
No, I would say that the main traditional focus was on identifying the ruler of the year and examining its position both in the radix and in the revolution – though there were many other considerations as well, and planets on the angles have always been considered important. |
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Paul
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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I've been finding these posts very interesting. Particularly that the profected lord of the ascendant finds itself by transit on the 8th house cusp.
One thing I find odd is that the Arabic authors did not write about the lord of the ascendant preferably aspecting the ascendant etc (unless I misunderstood this). I do not know about profections but they certainly make this point for, as an example, horary. |
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Martin Gansten
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Paul wrote: | | One thing I find odd is that the Arabic authors did not write about the lord of the ascendant preferably aspecting the ascendant etc (unless I misunderstood this). I do not know about profections but they certainly make this point for, as an example, horary. |
Yes, it is a little odd. The procedure preserved in the Indian sources is based on concepts like sect and triplicities, which are not part of pre-Islamic Indian astrology, so it seems clear that it is of non-Indian origin. It reminds me of methods for determining the hyleg (another concept that didn't make it to India, or didn't survive there). |
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Therese Hamilton
Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| Martin Gansten wrote: | | Therese Hamilton wrote: | | Yes, this was Cyril Fagan's big discovery, the sidereal solar return. (SSR) |
Right. Perhaps 'western solar return' is a little too generic a term for this, even on the sidereal forum. |
This is one of the differences between America and Europe. SSR (Sidereal Solar Return) is automatically associated with Cyril Fagan's sidereal methods in this country. Traditional astrology is referred to as "classical." But from now on if I'm referring to Fagan's methods, I'll identify them as such.
| Quote: | | Incidentally, the idea of using sidereal revolutions goes back a long way even in the west – see the quotation from Francesco Giuntini here. |
Nice web site!! I do have all of Ben Dykes translations except for Bonatti, as well as Morin's book on Revolutions, plus the Project Hindsigjht translations, but (...sigh...) not enough time for reading and studying and more studying. But we have an expert right here to fill us in.
| Quote: | | The Persians, who developed the technique of annual revolutions, used a sidereal year, and that is the year definition still present in some works preserved in the Latin, such as The Book of Aristotle. |
Book of Aristotle: First on my study list. I was quite thrilled to see that translation, but it is still sitting on my reading table yet to be read except for a few pages here and there.
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astroart
Joined: 08 Mar 2009
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Location: Varna, Bulgaria
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The Persians, who developed the technique of annual revolutions, used a sidereal year, and that is the year definition still present in some works preserved in the Latin, such as The Book of Aristotle. |
On the web address :
http://www.apotelesma.it/upload/DimitarKozhuharov.pdf
was published my research based on the one ancient Arabic manuscript and many other scientific papers, where I showed that until the early 9th Century Arab and Persian astrologers used a sidereal solar return.After 830 AD began widespread use of tropical solar return.
The article was published by courtesy of Lucia Belicia(Genoa) and Margherita Fiorelllo(Roma).
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Martin Gansten
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Thank you for that link, Dimitar. As the paper was translated into Italian by Margherita, may I ask in what language it was originally written? |
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