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Messi and Mars
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Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the additional comments deb.

here is one of the many dilemna's i think astrologers face when trying to define what is a 'strongly placed' planet... there are a number of ways to do this and subjective decisions are made in examples where it is less obvious which is how i see the latest quiz..

i mentioned i thought saturn retro in chart 2 was especially strong for these reasons.. a planet in an angle is considered strong, especially if in the ascendant or midheaven.. the only planet in chart 2 in this position is saturn.. further, saturn has moon applying to it in a nocturnal chart.. i also mentioned that it was my impression vedic astrology treats saturn as more favoured in a nocturnal chart then a diurnal one... only going on planetary phase in relation to sun it is weak and retrograde.. if the reason retrograde gets a negative rap has to do with planetary phase that is fine, but putting planetary phase in relation to sun at the top of one's consideration of whether a planet is strong, ignores the daily motion of the planets in relation to the angles at a persons time of birth.. one has to make a decision of which part of this one considers more associated with 'planetary strength'... for these reasons i thought saturn was strong in chart 2, however not as strong as mercury which is why i suggested mercury was the strongest in this chart.. for me to do this is based on sign position consideration and rulership considerations.. perhaps i have this wrong, but i still see saturn quite strong in chart 2.. using modern techniques saturn is also in a very close 135 aspect to mars as well..

regarding saturn in chart 2 of what relevance does it have being in the same sign as the pof? perhaps i would best post this response to your comment on the march 11th quiz thread... someone move it if they think it is more appropriate over there... thanks - james
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Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
but putting planetary phase in relation to sun at the top of one's consideration of whether a planet is strong, ignores the daily motion of the planets in relation to the angles at a persons time of birth.. one has to make a decision of which part of this one considers more associated with 'planetary strength'...

It depends which method you decide to use.

If you follow Ptolemy and his Medieval/Renaissance commentators you should consider Mercury, Venus, and Mars according their position to MC and phase. That's all.

If you want to follow other methods obviously they could work too, but they are other methods.

Traditional astrology at
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Joined: 13 Mar 2012
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Messi and Mars Reply with quote

Tienka Atema wrote:
Hi all,
In charts of football players, we assume a dignified Mars.
But are we right? Players like Messi, Platini or Van Basten have superb technical skills and they express beauty in the way they play(ed). To me, that sounds more like Mercury or Venus.

I looked at the placement by sign of 11 famous players:

1 Messi: Mars in Cancer, Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Cancer.
2 Platini: Mars in Cancer, Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Gemini.
3 Van Basten: Mars in Leo, Venus in Libra, Mercury in Scorpio
4 Zidane: Mars in Cancer, Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Cancer
5 Beckenbauer: Mars in Cancer Venus in Leo, Mercury in Virgo
6 Pele: Mars in Libra Venus in Virgo, Mercury in Scorpio
7 Cantona: Mars in Taurus. Venus in Aries, Mercury in Taurus
8 Beckham: Mars in Pisces. Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Taurus
9 Cruyff: Mars in Aries. Venus in Aries, Mercury in Aries
10 Vialli: Mars in Gemini. Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Leo
11 Sepp Maier: Mars in Gemini. Venus in Aquarius, Mercury in Gemini.

I am not making a statement here and we should look at much more, but isn't it interesting? All charts can be found on the Astrodata site, except Van Basten and Cruyff. I have no time of birth of those two.

I have the same degree of Gemini risng as Messi. We have in comon the same air of someone who will never completely grow up and look like an adult Tongue Out
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

>What defines a football player, or a tennis player or a boxer? <

I just caught this. I've been on vacation and just got back this afternoon and this was posted a couple of months ago.

Let us not confuse American football with European football (hereafter "soccer). American football players are specialists each with a particular set of skills. Receivers, those whose main job is to catch the thrown football, have to have speed and grace as well as strength. The Quarterback, the player that throws the ball usually, has to be able to throw an oblong shaped ball great distances at high speeds with great accuracy. He also needs to posses leadership skills. Lineman are huge, fast and their job is mostly to commit violence on the opponent. The offensive lineman block oncoming players to prevent them from tackling the whoever has the ball. Defensive lineman are supposed to push away men that weigh over 300 pounds in order to catch and tackle whoever has the ball.

Soccer players have to have endurance, great coordination as well as speed and mastering a diverse set of skills.

Dick Butkus, the mystery chart was a middle linebacker, a position on the defense. His job was to tackle opposing players with the ball as well as sometimes, try to get in after the defensive linemen in order to tackle the quarterback or any player running with the football. They are generally large (250 pounds or more) very fast and smart. The middle linebacker calls the plays for the defense and is the field leader on defense.

The point is that we can't pin down in a chart American (and perhaps not European) football players' skills as simply football players. Speed is particularly important. Coaches claim they can tech anyone to play the game but they cannot teach speed and speed is essential. But throwing the ball requires a different set of skills than catching it and both are different from running with the ball and tackling the guy carrying the ball.

It's just not that simple. A strong Mars shows desire (mandatory for a professional athlete) and competitive spirit, also mandatory to rise to the highest levels of the sport. Venus might figure into some of the positions where grace is required. There is nothing graceful about being a middle linebacker. There is about being a wide receiver.
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me Mars (and probably Mercury) is the professional significator in Messi's chart.
It is true that most of the authors says that the angular planets has more to say about the native's profession than the other planets but this Mars for me is distinguishing itself among the others.
It is true that it is essentially debilitated but lets not forget that it is in its own Trigon. In night he rules the watery trigon and 10th place of action and praxis happens to be in this same trigon while Mars aspecting it through trigonal relationship. Furthermore, the twelfth part of this Mars, alongside the twelfth part of the Lot of Fortune are on the same 10th place regarding Mars and Mercury by trigonal relationship. These two twelfth parts are in the terms of Mars.

I suspect that western astrology as was going further away from the Hellenistic sources forgot about the importance of the twelfth parts of the planets and the importance of the trigons. We allow our-self to discard Mars as bestower of something good just because he is in descension.

We also forget that Mars, even though in descension (slavery, fall), is helped by the perfect mutual reception with Jupiter (inside 3 degrees application, very strong), who happens to rule the Firdaria by general period in all these years of Messi's glory (alongside with Mars as a partner from March 2009 till November 2010).

We also forget that Mars (being of the sect in favor) is a spear-bearer of the Light of the sect in favor which happens to be on Ascendant, very powerful. Notice how the Light of the Sect has all its partners of the night sect as a spear bearers (going after the Moon):
- Mars is of the sect in favor, in the trigon that rules, rising after the Moon. Configured with the MC.
- Mercury as an evening rising, in if I may use: generosity with the Moon, is rising after the Moon, configured with the MC.
- Venus is also rising after the Moon on an angle.

This shows high potency of the night planets in general in this chart.
What I have described above is pertaining to the rank of the native (which is high according to the chart!), but it is interesting to read Hephaistio's II book and his analysis of the Emperor's Hadrian chart in regard to rank. In the same delineation he uses spear-bearers as he describes his professional assets but also says to look at the ruler of the MC and does it sees the place, and is it oriental, because if it is so, the native will be one who would be notable and effective and hard to overcome.

It is true that Jupiter does not see the Peak Pivot, but there are two solutions for this. The first one is to assume that Mars is helping him as a trigon ruler of the 10th and as a planet which sees the same pivot being in 2nd (same trigon).
The second probable solution is that Aries and Pisces are signs with equal-ascension, so the peak pivot and Jupiter were both activated somewhere around Messi's 20th year of life, just when his ascension to the greatests in this sport began.
Furthermore, this Jupiter is oriental and in its own trigon (Jupiter rules fiery trigon by night). He is good spear-bearer of the Sun.

Firmicus says that Mars in 2nd by night brings soldiers or athletes.
2nd place is the place of Livelihood, Paulus says of Life. And even though some negative meanings are attributed to it, it is a place related to the work of the native.

Paulus says:
"There are times when it gives signs for the determination that concerns work since it is harmonious with the culminating zoidion due to a left triangle."
(Paulus Alexandrinus Introductory Matters, R.Schmidt, page 47-57)
It is true that this would be most probably so, if there is a planet in 10th which can assist to the planet in 2nd (there are "some times"), but could I dear to mention once again the twelfth part of Mars on the peak pivot with the Lot of Fortune's twelfth part?
I think Schmidt was the one who spoke that the twelfth part of the planet is the outer expression of the planet, or something like its manifestation; so in this regard, having Mars' twelfth part in its own trigon in the peak pivot would relate more and more this Mars with the work and actions of the native.

For me too, Mars is natural significator for the sportsmen.
Also, note how the twelfth part of the Ascendant is with Mercury and Mars.

We are going post factum here, but it is good exercise; it teaches us not to rush the next time when we work a mystery chart to guess that Venus as exalted ruler of 10th and 5th (creative arts) in the ascendant would probably bring a musician or an artist, just because it is angular planet and being one of the 3 planets which pertains to native's profession.

I think Zoller was the one who alongside of calculating the native's professional significator (even though I obviously do not follow his and the medieval method of finding the PS), was calculating Almuten of Angles, because these are very potent places in the chart. In the chart of Messi this is Jupiter. And this Jupiter is also the first planet to which Moon applies after the syzygy. Mars is in Jupiter's terms and as I said, applies very tightly in mutual reception to this Jupiter.
For me, there are too many connections and indications that this Mars would apply to the native's profession.

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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Few days ago, Messi won the Ballon D'or [Golden Ball] for the 4th time in a row, making him the first player in the history of football game to win this prestige award 4 times. He also broke Muhler's record 40 years old of scoring 86 goals in a calender year (Messi scored 91). And he is only 25 years old, and has probably 10 more years of a career in front of him.

It is clear that this year was his year on an individual level.
When he received the award, the whole crowd in the hall [all eminent coaches and players] gave him a standing ovation, which was a moment for remembrance.

This guy never stops to awakes my impressions with his enormous talent for this game.

So, these days I am asking my self how this great fortune and eminence is showed in his chart.

I will probably repeat my self in some instances, and also would probably repeat some things of the astrologers here who said similar things about his chart, but I want to share my current take on this chart we have.

First thing is that the chart shows great potential of prosperity and I will try to point them out.

Attempt for Rectification by Animodar and Trutine Hermes

If we use Animodar's method of 'fine-tuned' rectification, we would note that Mercury as ruler of prenatal Syzygy (and also almuten) is at 16 Cancer, and the MC degree falls in 15 Pisces. I just want to point this out, we may need a degree of fine tuned rectification if we assume that the ascendant sign is Gemini.
The reason I am taking Gemini instead of Sagittarius [where Moon happened to be at the prenatal preventional lunation] is because Sun was above the earth in that chart.

If I try to find the Ascending sign through Trutine Hermes, I will notice that from ascendant degree in 3 Gemini, there are 8 till Moon in 11 Gemini. So, according to Lilly's table [p.502] this would be the first horizontal row corresponding to 273 days of gestation because Moon is under the horizon.

Year 1987 was not a leap year, so counting the days of the year, I found that June is 175th day of the year. Now because 175 is a smaller number then the period of gestation (273) I add 365 (non leap year) days to 175 and come to the number of 540.
540 - 273 = 267.
So, his conception happened 267 days prior his birthday.
This is 24th of September 1986.
Looking at the ephemeris I found that Moon was in Gemini in this day indeed.

I adjust the ascendant of that day to fall in the same degree as in natal.
That is 3 Gemini 59' and note the position of the Moon, she falls in 8 Gemini 49' in 23:57h of 23 September for Rosario, Argentina.

Then I go back to the base chart and put the ascendant in 849' Gemini.
This is for time 06:23h Rosario, Argentina.

Now, if I follow Animodar I would put MC in 16 25' Pisces according to Mercury, the almuten of the syzygy. This leads us to time: 06:04:35 AM.

I would go with this one.
So much effort for 4 minutes and 1 only Very Happy

The Chart

Here is a chart in Morinus software with dodecatemorias on the outer side:

First thing I am noticing and want to point out before preceding to look at the chart from Valens' perspective for prosperity, is the dodecatemoria of Mars in about 25Pisces.
Goran [Cor Scorpii] earlier pointed out how important the mutual reception between Mars and Jupiter is, and now I want to point out on yet another connection between those two [and again thanks to Goran for pointing me out the quote]. Mars' dodecatemoria falls in Jupiter's sign [Pisces] on MC, and here is what Kusyar Ibn Labban says about the connection between dodecatemoria of some planet and the lord of that sign:

When a planet is in the dodecatemorion of <another> planet, it (the former) is in application with it (the latter). When it (a planet) is in the dodecatemorion of a house in the diagram of the horoscope, it is the same as when it is situated inthis house.

I stressed the importance of Mars' dodecatemoria on MC earlier in my posts. Here Kusyar says that in our case, Mars' dodecatemoria in Jupiter's sign, it is the same as Mars and Jupiter are in application! [in fact they are naturally]. But also, it is the same as Mars is above the earth on MC in the sign of the great benefic with whom he naturally has perfect [within a 3 of application] mutual reception [and to note that Mars is Lord of the Lot of Kingship or "what one does" in Scorpio!]. I will point out later why this Jupiter is extremely important in giving him prosperity.

Here is a chart in Delphic Oracle, where we can analyze Valens' Lots for prosperity indications:

Looking at this chart, we are noticing that Fortune is on Ascendant making it highly potent. Moon, the Light of Time on Ascendant in masculine sign on ascendant, also powerful and good for popularity, fame! [I am sure this was pointed out earlier by some].
Jupiter, the ruler of the syzygy falls in 11th from ascendant and 11th from Fortune - the house of Accomplishments and Acquisitions.
Jupiter is received, it is triplicity ruler of Aries by night and is in mutual reception with Mars not only through signs [exaltation], but also through terms!

Furthermore, Jupiter is in conjunction with the Lot of Exaltation! Another very powerful testimony! And guess who is ruler of the Exaltation? It is Mars who is WITH Jupiter through its dodecatemoria up in MC!

But furthermore, Mars is alongside Mercury [ruler of Fortune] WITH the Lot of Basis!
And the ruler of the Lot of Basis - Moon Light of Time is on Ascendant and WITH Fortune!
Highly, highly potent chart in regards to prosperity and personal power!

Venus, ruler of the Spirit, again, on the ascendant and WITH Fortune!
Valens points out, not in one place, that rulers of these lots exchanging places is highly potent.
Venus in her own terms is doryphory of the Moon - the Light of Time.

Valens is on the spot with this nativity! Messi has great deal of prosperity indicators according to Valens. And this is one of the very few charts I am seeing with such a powerful basis.

I hope I will find more time to add some other prognostical notes on the times he won the awards.

Here are the Firdarias:

In 2007 he entered in Jupiter's rulership of Firdaria which is the time of the beginning of his ascension.

Abu Ma'shar about the rulership of Jupiter through Firdariyyah:

"And it signifies that in a distribution of this kind he will pass from every experience of evils to an experience of good things, and from every anxiety to every pleasantness, and his prosperity and riches will be increased, and he will be praised by kings, and business matters will be committed to him, and he will be worthy of reputation.
And if Jupiter were in his own proper bounds or those of Venus at the beginning of the nativity, or in his own triplicity (that is, in Aries, Leo, Sagittarius) the signification of prosperity will be greater"
(In Solar Revlution, translated by Benjamin N. Dykes PhD, emphasis mine].

How true this is when knowing that Jupiter is in 11th from Fortune and Ascendant!

Next Abu Ma'shar says that he will have a wife (which is also true for Messi). Jupiter is also associated with bringing children, Messi also had a child this year, in the rulership of Jupiter/Venus [Venus rules his 5th].

From August 2012 Messi is in rulership of Jupiter with Venus partnering.
Abu Ma'shar says that this kind of rulership brings "adding to the prosperity", his treasures and reaches will be increased (Messi received bigger salary and received an enormous offer from a Russian club of a 30 millions dollars or euros I am not sure, for a year): "and he will be honorable in all things, and he will wield the greatest office, and a fortunate child will be born to him" [p.183].
My personal blog:
"Iunge testimonia & iudica ex superabundanti" ~ Cardano
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