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Lilly's Considerations
compiled by D. Houlding
Book II of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
translated by David Pingree
Compiled by Deborah Houlding
The Babylonian Astrolabe: the Calendar of Creation, by Rumen K. Kolev
Reviewed by Gill Zukovskis

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Messi and Mars
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:


Margherita, why do you describe Mars as "very strong", when here it is occidental and in its helical setting? All the authors I am aware of describe a planet that has newly risen as strong, but when they are setting they are described as weak and in the degrees that lead them up to setting they are defined as weakening. I would be very grateful to know where you learned this in case there is something in the traditional literature I've missed.


Not Mars, Mercury.

It is doing a phase in seven days (the limit is taken from Paulus Alexandrinus), in effect the day after.

A phase is very strong, even if the planet is setting, it's a change in the planetary nature of the planet, it changes its primary qualities, its meaning, almost everything.

We do the same when a planet is in its station, we should underline the change in qualities, it's very important.

So, this Mercury in phase is moreover with Mars, so it is perfect for us, Moreover why we should take Venus? Messi is a soccer champion.

If Venus is the ruler of the actions, it does not fit.... It is difficult to think to soccer as a Venusian sport, I think it's the same in UK, not just in Italy.

margherita
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for responding Margherita. I checked again and see I misread you so I apologise for that. You did say this of Mercury, not Mars:

Margherita wrote:
Mars is still visible, and Mercury is going to the heliacal setting in fact it disappears on June, 26. So in effect it is in heliacal setting, it's very strong.

However, the way you have written this leaves the impression that you consider Mercury to be strong when setting like this. Or have I misunderstood you again - are you only suggesting that it is the phase that is strong, but not the planet?
I agree that risings, settings and stations are all pivotal points of change, but it seems clear in all authors that the change which occurs when a planet is setting is only to weaken and hinder its effects. Paulus, for example:

Introductory Matters, 14 (Greenbaum p.21): wrote:
when making a morning or evening disappearance, or retracing their path or declining, they have weak, unprofitable and insignificant influences.


I can't find a reference to planets making phases "in seven days" in Paulus. Perhaps a later author? I have the Bezza, Greenbaum and Schmidt translations of Paulus, and like the Bezza translation very much, but I only use that for checking certain points, because it's written in Italian. If the point is made in that edition could you let me have the page number? I'm not meaning to trouble you but I'm doing research into the historical definitions of the phases at the moment, so if I have missed this explanation in Paulus it would be very helpful to me if you can show me where to find it.

Thanks
Deb
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jill elinore



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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this refers to phasis - see Schmidt.
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What, see him personally? Smile I'd be surprised if Schmidt is teaching this differently but without a reference it's easy for him to be misrepresented. I'm only really interested in what the historical authors have written, so Margherita's remark struck me as curious because I'm unaware of any historical author describing a planet as powerful when it is setting or 'pertaining into' setting. I am aware that we have references, for example, The Book of Aristotle (II), that mention 7 days as a time measure for planets being compelled to enter the Sun's beams, but here it is still said that they are "agreed to be useless" as indicators of life, etc.

To suggest that planets are strong when setting goes against the grain of what I have read in numerous works. The principle appears to be clear that planets gain a great boost of potency after emerging out of the Sun's beams and another boost (though not so great) after regaining their direct motion following retrogression. However, going into retrograde, being retrograde, or going under the Sun's beams are events that are consistently described as being weakening phases of the synodic cycle - not just in the Babylonian tradition, but the Hellenistic, Medieval and Renaissance works too.
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jill elinore



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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to be vague, its not my area. But I used to post a lot on a forum run by the Project Hindsight posse and they used to refer to a 7 day phasis that was a strengthening condition but it may have just been rising rather than setting. It was the 7 day reference that struck a note with me.
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think they only meant it to refer to the rising. The Greek word phasis and its Latin equivalent phainomena are plural forms of the verb which in its passive tense means to be making an appearance or be seen. So strictly speaking planets are only making a phasis when making their appearances, not when they are dissappearing in their settings.
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jill elinore



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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Youre probably right. I just checked out the X Files site and Curtis has a section Heliacal Rising and Setting, sample there of Muhammed Ali. At the bottom it list phasis times and seems to include risings and settings?
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golmagi



Joined: 07 Mar 2012
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tienka Atema wrote:
It is interesting that Tiger Woods has his Mars in Gemini, Venus in Scorpio, Mercury in Capricorn, Federer has Mars in Cancer, Venus in Virgo on the ascendant, Mercury in Leo, Navratilova Venus in Virgo, Mars in Pisces, Mercury in Libra.
Virgo/Gemini/Mercury/Venus/Sun or Mars in a Mercury ruled sign seem to be important in these type of charts, but that is in not based on any statistics.
It just caught my eye Smile


You listed probably the greatest athletes of the last 25 years. These correlations are truly amazing!
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
I would think they only meant it to refer to the rising. The Greek word phasis and its Latin equivalent phainomena are plural forms of the verb which in its passive tense means to be making an appearance or be seen. So strictly speaking planets are only making a phasis when making their appearances, not when they are dissappearing in their settings.


I have always thinking of "phase" like in Italian:

phase: "period or moment which is changed in comparison to a preceding one , peculiar moment of a phenomena".

In every case Paulus Alexandrinus page 26 of Hindsight translation: "the wandering stars make phases in relation to the Sun, sometimes morning risings or evening settings, other times evening rising and morning settings.... "

The quote of the 7 days (I did not know your quote, thanks) is in the same translation page 59 last lines when he says that the planets ruling actions should be in their phase (here Paulus mentions their stronger one, matutine for outers and vespertine for inners) in 7 days before or after the birth.

I understand and absolutely agree with you what Paul mentioned is the best phase, but in every case I don't think it is a problem of dignity, essential or accidental, I believe more that the real point is that a planet in a phase is especially stressed.

Moreover we choice we have, Venus rules the MC by exaltation (if the birth time is right), but no aspect and no phase and in the wrong side.

Mercury in a way or another is doing a phase in 24h, it is in the right side and it is with Mars, and both planets are connected with sport.

For me it is an obvious choice rather than saying that Messi could be a painter, and is doing the wrong work...

margherita
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Margherita

I don't have any problem with using the word 'phasis' to mean that an important phase is taking place. Guiseppe Bezza was the one who stressed to me the importance of understanding the meaning of the Greek word correctly, to mean something that is being brought out into manifestation in its visible appearance. However, as I see it the use of the word 'phasis' for a rising or setting is no different to the use of the word 'phase' - it has a more liberal meaning in a more general sense. It's only the principle that matters, and the need to be clear about which phases make the planets powerful in their expression.

Quote:
The quote of the 7 days (I did not know your quote, thanks) is in the same translation page 59 last lines when he says that the planets ruling actions should be in their phase (here Paulus mentions their stronger one, matutine for outers and vespertine for inners) in 7 days before or after the birth.


Do you mean p.59 of the Project Hinsight edition of Paulus, published in 1993? I have that but don't see anything that refers to this on that page. Or do you mean p.59 of the Bezza translation? I did try, but couldn't find it there either.

Quote:
Moreover we choice we have, Venus rules the MC by exaltation (if the birth time is right), but no aspect and no phase and in the wrong side.

But the degree of Venus is on the sq of the degree of the MC isn't it? Am I looking at the wrong chart? Considering phase alone I think we would have to conclude that Venus in the Messi chart is in a stronger position than Mercury, despite being oriental. It is in a position that Bonatti (III.II.6) and Alcabitius (III.10) - as two examples I have to hand - define as 'oriental strong'. This is described as being the most expressive part of the oriental side of the inferior planet cycles.

But this is what Bonatti writes regarding the phase that Mercury has held since it turned retrograde:
"Then up until they come to the rays of the Sun, they are called occidental retrograde or most debilitated. After they begin to go under the rays of the Sun, they are called occidental combust".

The best phase for an inferior planet is occidental rising of course; but it is generally held that an inferior planet is in a stronger position when rising as an oriental planet, as Venus is for Messi, than setting as an occidental one, as Mercury is.

Phase isn't everything though - to me it is most reliable when indicating the strength that planets get when various sect considerations fit together. Also, I don't think the significators of profession have to be Venus or Mercury or Mars in this chart. Since all of them have their own relations to the MC and its ruler, surely each one contributes something - as does Jupiter (primarily), the Moon, and Saturn in opposition to Venus.

Because his midheaven gathers together so many strong planetary contacts we can see that this is someone whose career matters a lot and there will be lots of sides to it. Sport comes from the MC-ruler's closest aspect being the square of Mars. Venus doesn't have to be a painter; Messi is also a public entertainer. He is described as being ultra-famous, though I've never heard of him. Somewhere in his professional status, there should be some signature of him being a 'celebrity' who gains applause, fame and popular appeal though his work. I guess there has to be a certain sort of artistry in the game that makes him gain the notability he has. (Incidentally, sport is traditionally listed under Venusian pursuits, like 'jousting' -"jesting", it's supposed to be playful warfare, so I think bringing the significance of Venus and Mars together could fit there too).
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Konrad



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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Incidentally, sport is traditionally listed under Venusian pursuits, like 'jousting' -"jesting", it's supposed to be playful warfare, so I think bringing the significance of Venus and Mars together could fit there too.


Hi Deb,

wouldn't this be the sport itself though rather then the participants? I always took the professional significators to be what the person used in their profession rather than a direct description of the profession itself. I can see why people would think that football would be slightly Venusian but, to me, the structure of the game, its tactics and intricacies would suggest more of a Mercury and Mars mix when actually involved in it. I mean just the mental and physical dexterity alone would suggest Mercury to me.
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that Mercury shows the dexterity, etc. Personally I see nothing Venusian whatsover in football, but then I have more than a disinterest - I really dislike it. Years ago some friends made a big issue about how I would change my mind if I went to a big game. I did - never again; hated every moment. I only recognise 3 names in Tienka's list.

I think the idea of Venus and sport fits iwith the idea that the 5th house is the joy of Venus and both can be significant to sport and 'gaming'. So it's a very general thing, but where Lilly refers to it he talks about how you would identify the means to wealth if the planet that most promised wealth was lord of the 5th house and suggest (CA p.169). "if a gentleman (by play, cards, dice, sport, pastimes) .. if an ordinary man... keeping an ... ale-house, Inn, Tavern, Bowling alley". ILilly never recommended judging anything on one single testimony. but I thought I would mention it because Venus is the 5th house ruler in this chart.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i find the comments on this thread very interesting.. i have greenbaums book on paulus, but not these other ones being referred to.. i am 1/2 thru it and have to say i have not gotten as a clear an image as what is being presented here on planetary phase.. perhaps i missed it, or it is yet to come in the book. with regard to messis chart - a b rated chart i believe with the 6 am time - how do folks here view a mercury going retrograde? it would seem to me to be a weak part of it's planetary phase, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable can comment.. i have always considered planets changing direction as powerful moments in the planets cycle and having great bearing on the chart.. perhaps a stronger understanding of planetary phase is what i am missing in all of this..
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Yuriy



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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:

Moreover why we should take Venus? Messi is a soccer champion.


Because by Ptolemy planet which rising before Sun should be taken in consideration as a professional significator (also planets having strength at MC degree), among other significators.
Since Venus angular, aspecting MC and not peregrine planet (in own term)it can't be simply disregarded. Moreover Venus ruling his 5th house and he's a great soccer "performer".
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some replies to Deborah (women first) and Yuri


Yuriy wrote:


Since Venus angular, aspecting MC and not peregrine planet (in own term)it can't be simply disregarded. Moreover Venus ruling his 5th house and he's a great soccer "performer".


That's not the method I follow. My method is Ptolemy's and Paulus (which is the same) one: there is no such a thing like the ruler of the 5th house. Significators should be taken because they rule MC or in phase to the Sun and in the houses which are active.

Deborah" wrote:
Do you mean p.59 of the Project Hinsight edition of Paulus, published in 1993? I have that but don't see anything that refers to this on that page. Or do you mean p.59 of the Bezza translation? I did try, but couldn't find it there either.


yes, p.59 of Hindsight edition, page 113 Bezza edition.



margherita
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