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Messi and Mars
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 97
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Messi and Mars Reply with quote

Hi all,
In charts of football players, we assume a dignified Mars.
But are we right? Players like Messi, Platini or Van Basten have superb technical skills and they express beauty in the way they play(ed). To me, that sounds more like Mercury or Venus.

I looked at the placement by sign of 11 famous players:

1 Messi: Mars in Cancer, Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Cancer.
2 Platini: Mars in Cancer, Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Gemini.
3 Van Basten: Mars in Leo, Venus in Libra, Mercury in Scorpio
4 Zidane: Mars in Cancer, Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Cancer
5 Beckenbauer: Mars in Cancer Venus in Leo, Mercury in Virgo
6 Pele: Mars in Libra Venus in Virgo, Mercury in Scorpio
7 Cantona: Mars in Taurus. Venus in Aries, Mercury in Taurus
8 Beckham: Mars in Pisces. Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Taurus
9 Cruyff: Mars in Aries. Venus in Aries, Mercury in Aries
10 Vialli: Mars in Gemini. Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Leo
11 Sepp Maier: Mars in Gemini. Venus in Aquarius, Mercury in Gemini.

I am not making a statement here and we should look at much more, but isn't it interesting? All charts can be found on the Astrodata site, except Van Basten and Cruyff. I have no time of birth of those two.
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's very important to note his Mars is on Pollux(within a degree, if I'm not mistaken!), a prominently martial fixed star of 1st magnitude.

Mars is disposed by the Moon which happens to land in the angle of the first house(body) of the native coloring(according to Morin) his physical energy with distinctly martial abilities/propensities! Mars is in the 2nd house by division, giving him moderate strength of overall influence in the chart; he is also in its sect and in its triplicity.

Mars is disposed (by exaltation and term) by Jupiter in Aries(strong mutual reception here) which is oriental, swift in motion, in a good/profitable 11th whole sign/house and squares Mars from a superior position, bringing good fortune/empowerment/recognition/fame to his martial endeavors/pursuits.
Jupiter does Mars one more great service, and that is reflecting his light to Messi's Gemini ascendant - that's what stood out for me in this chart, anyway Smile


Last edited by cor scorpii on Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:50 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I wouldn't say I would look for a dignified Mars but one which is pivotal, making a phase or is ruling important points in the chart with either the regard of Jupiter and/or being in one of his domiciles, bounds or his exaltation (due to his rulership of the feet). I would also expect Mars to have some link to Mercury as you have stated (Mercury would show the "art" of football much more clearly than Venus for me) and perhaps Saturn due to Saturn's rulership of the legs. I have only looked at Vialli, Messi and Beckenbauer (couldn't find any data for Zidane!) and I am using a Sidereal zodiac but all three have those sorts of traits in their nativities.

Messi has Mars with the Lot of Fortune in Gemini conjunct his ruler Mercury in the bounds of Saturn while ruling the Lot of Spirit (a lot I am finding increasingly important in deciding someone's manner of expression in their career). The lot of Spirit is in the place of Acquisition with Jupiter.

Vialli has Mars as exalted ruler of the Asc, Fortune and Spirit while being pretty close to their exact degree positions and he is in the bounds of Saturn.

Beckenbauer has Mars in the Asc ruling Fortune while conjunct Saturn in the domicile of Mercury and the bounds of Jupiter. He is also partile sextile with Mercury and square with Jupiter. All this with Betelgeuse rising.
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Messi has Mars with the Lot of Fortune in Gemini conjunct his ruler Mercury in the bounds of Saturn

Isn't his Mars in Cancer?
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a little more time than I thought, so I have looked at a few more:

Platini is a little more tenuous using my original hypothesis but Mars has potential to be a professional significator being the next planet applied to by the Moon and is in the domicile of Mercury.

Pele has Mars ruling Spirit in the domicile of Mercury and the bounds of Jupiter in the 10th from Fortune while it is fairly close to making its morning appearance.

Cantona may or may not have Mars ruling Fortune (it is at 29 Sco 59 in my software) but it is partile both Saturn and Mercury. Again not so clear.

Sepp Maier has Mars ruling Spirit while conjunct Saturn while in his bound. He is also being overcome by Mercury and his next aspect is to Jupiter.
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Konrad



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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:
Quote:
Messi has Mars with the Lot of Fortune in Gemini conjunct his ruler Mercury in the bounds of Saturn

Isn't his Mars in Cancer?


Hi Goran,

nice to see you again.

Yes, if you use the tropical zodiac but I went over to the dark-side recently so I don't.
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
cor scorpii wrote:
Quote:
Messi has Mars with the Lot of Fortune in Gemini conjunct his ruler Mercury in the bounds of Saturn

Isn't his Mars in Cancer?


Hi Goran,

nice to see you again.

Yes, if you use the tropical zodiac but I went over to the dark-side recently so I don't.


Nice to see you too, Konrad Smile

Ok, that makes it clear. Thanks for the explanation.
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I found interesting in the thread of the mystery charts was the chart with Mars in Scorpio. He was identified as the football player because of this Mars in rulership, which was also angular. Just looking very quickly at these famous players, it was a surprise that only Cruyff has his Mars in rulership.
But we do see a lot of Gemini/Mercury/Venus.
I was also wondering how we could differentiate between different sport skills.
What defines a football player, or a tennis player or a boxer?
Football is a team-sport, tennis or golf is not. So maybe Venus is more important in football?
Well, just my thoughts and certainly not an analysis of these charts!
Thank you for your replies!
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What I found interesting in the thread of the mystery charts was the chart with Mars in Scorpio. He was identified as the football player because of this Mars in rulership, which was also angular.
And oriental/in sect, making phasis within 7 days after/prior to birth - if I'm not mistaken. So an extremely powerful Mars indeed. Jupiter trine was also present, howbeit from 12th.
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is interesting that Tiger Woods has his Mars in Gemini, Venus in Scorpio, Mercury in Capricorn, Federer has Mars in Cancer, Venus in Virgo on the ascendant, Mercury in Leo, Navratilova Venus in Virgo, Mars in Pisces, Mercury in Libra.
Virgo/Gemini/Mercury/Venus/Sun or Mars in a Mercury ruled sign seem to be important in these type of charts, but that is in not based on any statistics.
It just caught my eye Smile
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Here is Messi's chart, rating B.
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tienka

I just added a post to the mystery chart thread. I hope it clarifies that, for me, essential dignity is only a part of the picture and never definitive by itself. In this chart the aspect between MC-ruler Jupiter and Mars would draw my attention, because of the closeness of the aspect and the positive mutual reception between them (Jupiter in the sign of Mars and Mars in the exaltation of Jupiter). I find myself agreeing a lot with the points that cor scorpio makes - others too of course, but this comment that CS made earlier in this thread effectively summarises my own view too.

Quote:
Mars is disposed (by exaltation and term) by Jupiter in Aries(strong mutual reception here) which is oriental, swift in motion, in a good/profitable 11th whole sign/house and squares Mars from a superior position, bringing good fortune/empowerment/recognition/fame to his martial endeavors/pursuits.
Jupiter does Mars one more great service, and that is reflecting his light to Messi's Gemini ascendant - that's what stood out for me in this chart, anyway


(And ps - I will be in personal correspondence with you on another very shortly Smile )
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Deb and Goran, I do agree with you, but......if we didn’t know it was Messi’s chart, would we choose Mars as the significator of profession?
I think the Jupiter/Mars trine with mutual reception shows his success, not especially his profession.
Bonatti tells us to look at angular planets, especially in the 1st house: ”Look at the Ascendant of his nativity, and see if one of the planets is found in it: because he whom you were to find in the Ascendant will have to be considered, and you will take the signification of the aforesaid from him.” Book of Astronomy, Volume II, p. 1337 Translated by Benjamin Dykes, Cazimi Press 2007
In Ptolemy’s Tetrabiblos, IV.4, Ptolemy wrote:”The lord of action is apprehended by two methods, from the sun and from the culminating sign. For it will be needful to look both for the planet that has made its morning appearance closest to the sun...particularly when it occupies the application of the Moon.” P. 391 Robbins translation. And on p. 385 he states:” If Venus rules action...and If Jupiter testifies, they will be athletes...persons deemed worthy of honours.”
In Messi's chart, Venus is in her own terms and the Moon's next aspect is to Venus and Venus is closest to the Sun. So if this was a mystery chart, we do have strong indications of a successful athlete too, using a slightly different method.
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Marius Cojoc



Joined: 20 Jun 2011
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

msg deleted

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Yuriy



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:49 am    Post subject: Re: Messi and Mars Reply with quote

Tienka Atema wrote:
Hi all,
In charts of football players, we assume a dignified Mars.
But are we right? Players like Messi, Platini or Van Basten have superb technical skills and they express beauty in the way they play(ed). To me, that sounds more like Mercury or Venus.

I looked at the placement by sign of 11 famous players:

1 Messi: Mars in Cancer, Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Cancer.
2 Platini: Mars in Cancer, Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Gemini.
3 Van Basten: Mars in Leo, Venus in Libra, Mercury in Scorpio
4 Zidane: Mars in Cancer, Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Cancer
5 Beckenbauer: Mars in Cancer Venus in Leo, Mercury in Virgo
6 Pele: Mars in Libra Venus in Virgo, Mercury in Scorpio
7 Cantona: Mars in Taurus. Venus in Aries, Mercury in Taurus
8 Beckham: Mars in Pisces. Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Taurus
9 Cruyff: Mars in Aries. Venus in Aries, Mercury in Aries
10 Vialli: Mars in Gemini. Venus in Gemini, Mercury in Leo
11 Sepp Maier: Mars in Gemini. Venus in Aquarius, Mercury in Gemini.

I am not making a statement here and we should look at much more, but isn't it interesting? All charts can be found on the Astrodata site, except Van Basten and Cruyff. I have no time of birth of those two.


I think essential strength of Mars in player's chart is less important than being accidentally dignified and among prof. significators - having strength at MC degree or rising before Sun. Also receptions are important.
And I don't think strong Venus is indicator of profession there.
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