skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Mystery Chart Exercise March 3 2012
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 10, 11, 12  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Paul
Administrator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1391

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm torn between charts 1 and 2

Venus conjunct Mercury both trine the MC and from the creative 5th house. THis would strike me as the more creative of the three charts. Whether that creativity is musical or not I'm less sure about. I'm just hoping the three charts are different enough that one is easily the more obvious. If these are the charts of say a musician, a graphic designer and a painter then my theory is screwed.


Also, as for eminence, I've tried not to read any other replies but Tom's so as to not be swayed by other people's opinions, but was it said anywhere that this person achieved eminence or fame? The world is full of musicians, not all of them are famous or achieved eminence, and Tom stated in his opening post that he is not saying whether they are famous or not.


Chart one has a lot going for it too with venus not combust as it is in the second chart and also angular, plus the MC is the sign of its exaltation. Of course venus applies to a malefic in this chart.
It's hard to know, which is better - a 5th house venus which is combust, or an angular venus aspecting a malefic.

I would have thought the third chart is good for eminence but not sure about music. Like military or politics or something. The first two seem the more creative than this one.

(what do I feel like it will have to be only one that I ruled out completely and will be chart 3 all along!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 320
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 5:34 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom

For me it is between chart 1 and 3. Nothing in chart 2 strikes me as particularly expressive of musical talent. At first glance chart 3 looks the most obvious, but the MC ruler is not well placed in Libra and the planetary contacts to the MC are the Sun-Saturn opposition. It all seems a bit 'dry' and that looks to me like someone who does something for a living which is considered a task, or something heavy and serious, rather than something that is based on personal enjoyment. I'm supposing that any professional musician must find a sense of delight in music.

So I opt for chart 1, which I initially dismissed because of the Saturn contacts and debiliated state of the MC ruler. Now I am thinking that a pianist must have a good sense of structure and timing, and be able to practice hard, but still find it enjoyable. The key point for me is angular Venus in Capricorn on the sextile of the MC where it is exalted, and making good aspects to Mercury in the 5th and Saturn on the IC, which is joined to the MC ruler. I've noted many times that actors, musicians and those who perform in the arts as a profession have either a luminary or the MC ruler in the 5th house, so I'll opt for chart 1, with chart 3 as my second choice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom - how long will you be running this before you give the answer away?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jill elinore



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 48
Location: Worthing, West Sussex

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe we could have at least until tomorrow evening so I can make a contribution.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2637
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think the concept of musical 'talent' is a bad joke on people in relation to music. from my point of view, it is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.. courage to believe in oneself is a critical ingredient, with hard work the essential building block.. i don't believe in talent when it comes to music and think it mainly discourages many who might do quite well in music if they had more confidence in themselves..

about the part of fortune, since this is a traditional forum and it is a part of the chart.. i don't see anyone using it which makes me think it is primarily a "dumb note" that traditional astrologers pay lip service to, but not much else.. from what i know of the pof, the position of the ruler of the pof is considered very relevant with the 10th house position from the pof being the best spot for the ruler to be. perhaps angular is the next best.. having the benefics able to 'see' the pof is also helpful, while having the malefics unable to see would probably be helpful too, but this is just my limited understanding of the pof and others here who practice trad astrology can bring me up to speed on this..

chart 1 has pof in the 2nd with ruler in the 6th - overall not so good according to my understanding.. however the ruler is the sun and it is in pof 5th house, so that would be considered good. pof can't see the benefics, but is being opposed by mars..

chart 2 has pof in the 12th with ruler in the 6th as well, so not so good here either according to my limited understanding.. however, the ruler of the pof is in pof's 7th house, offset by being in capricorn.. jupiter position is very helpful to pof in this chart being in the same house and pof's first house..

chart 3 has pof in 10th or 11th house which would be considered the best of the 3, while ruler mercury is in the 12th house-whole signs) and in the 2nd from pof which is more of a mixed bag. sun - saturn opposition is in pof 3rd/9th house while the libra stellium is in pof house 2. i think music a little bit with libra in the 2nd, but no so much with sun-saturn over the 3-9 axis.

perhaps i could have given the pof more of a musical spin.. what signs/houses/elements define music more according to others here? i would be curious to read others comments on this.. to me leo and fire can definitely be a part of it, as can the 5th house. i wouldn't exclude any element, sign or house, but i think water shows up more often as well.. this is a very subjective pov i am sharing without any statistical back up..


the other dumb note in the chart that no one has talked about would be the nodal axis.. perhaps someone else can comment on this if it is going to be part of what is included in these charts, while the outers are excluded.. i want to know what others see here using the tools provided. thanks..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pisces_girl



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 25
Location: Europe

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would vote for chart number 1.

North node + Moon (Asc. ruler) + Mercury in the 5th points to a lot of creativity.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3433
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb, I wasn't sure how long I would run this, but I've been traveling all day by car and had a lot of time to think. And what I thought of was a new way to torture everyone without a lot of effort on my part Leery

So here goes: As we noted one of the charts is that of a musician. Here are the other two: one chart is that of a Roman Catholic Cardinal and the remaining chart is that of a famous American football player. Can we figure out who is whom by process of elimination? Heh.

Does this help?

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4919
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before the shutters come down I just want to affirm I am going with my initial choice -Chart 1.

Main reasons:

-ASC ruler (Moon) in 5th
-Mercury in 5th house
-NN in 5th house
-Sect light (Moon) in 5th
-Sect Light (Moon) on NN
-Sect Light/ASC ruler (Moon) in bounds (Egyptian) of Venus
-Sect light/Mercury in angular relationship to Lot of Fortune
-Venus strongly in sect-in night chart, above horizon, in feminine sign
-Venus occidental to sun
-Venus in an angular house
-Venus aspecting MC
-Venus exaltation ruler of MC
-Venus quadrant Lord 5
-Venus aspecting Mercury in 5th
-Venus trine Saturn ( conjunct MC ruler Jupiter)
-Whole sign Lord 5 (Mars) in bounds of Venus (Egyptian)


Chart 1 & 3 are an interesting contrast between a Venus in essential dignity (rulership) in Chart 3 and a good house (11th). However, on the basis of sect this is not such an effective Venus. Chart 1 has a a peregrine Venus but it is strongly in sect and in a good solar phase relationship to Sun. Venus is also angular in chart 1 so logically more powerful in its expression. I also think the fact the ASC ruler/Sect light (Moon) is in the bounds of Venus is important. The domicile and triplicity Lord of the Moon (Mars) is in the 8th house while the bound lord Venus is angular and stronger for the reasons cited above.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3433
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are gonna hate me, but I'm traveling, I won't be home until, Thursday night, and I don't have the birth data with me. I know which chart belongs to whom, but if I can't find it online, we'll have to wait for birth data. So if I reveal tomorrow, and I think I will, I may not have everything you need until I get back home. Sorry Embarassed
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Yuriy



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 376

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, using Ptolemi's methods of profession's definition, the following citation from Tetrabiblos could be applied:
"Further, should it happen that two arbiters of employment may be found together, and provided they should be Mercury and Venus, they will then produce musicians, melodists, and persons engaged in music, poetry, and songs: they will also produce (especially if changed in their places) 1, mimics, actors, dealers in slaves, makers of musical instruments, choristers and musical performers, dancers, weavers, modellers in wax, and painters. And if Saturn join testimony with Mercury and Venus, the preparation and sale of female ornaments will be added to the aforesaid occupations. But, if Jupiter give testimony, the persons will become administrators of justice, guardians of public affairs, instructors of youth, and magistrates of the people."
So, Mercury-Venus are professional significators.
From Ptolemi again, planets related to MS as well as first rising planet before Sun are related to profession of native.


1st chart.
Jupiter ruling MC and Venus culminates there. Mercury rising before Sun - prof. indicator and in close trine to MC.
Venus is angular in square to MC, ruled by Saturn. In addition to that Jupiter and Saturn ruled by Mercury. Also
N.Node in 5th is additional testimony for artistic field.


2nd chart.
Mars ruling MC in own sign in 4th and rising before Sun, Sun culminates at MC, sits in 5th house and Mercury-Venus combusted by Sun. They all don't have much dignity in Sagittarius. But Mercury-Venus in close trine to MC have reception by being in Jupiter's sign while Jupiter ruling MC triplicity in nocturnal chart.


3rd chart
Mercury ruling MC and Venus is triplicity ruler in diurnal chart, also Jupiter rising before Sun is prof. indicator.
Venus is essentially strong in Libra and Mercury ruled by Venus, and both conjuncted to Mars - 5th house ruler. Strong testimonies, but I don't like that Venus-Mercury have no aspect to MC (next sign).


So, I was considering chart 1 and 3, chart 2 has too strong Mars prof. significator.
And finally I think more testimonies for chart #1.
Chart #3 has more essential dignities for Venus but its not aspecting MC.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chart 2 looks most like the chart of a famous footballer to me. That's the one with the most powerful Mars (ruling MC, in dignity, trine Jupiter which squares the MC). It also fits with the 5th house link to public performers.
I imagine the famous footballer would be the wealthiest of the three - not sure what to make of that with Mercury in detriment combust the Sun. On the other hand it is conjunct Venus and trine the NN on the 2nd cusp.

Chart 3 has the Moon in the 9th and ruling 9th cusp, with Sun ruling most of 9th house and in aspect to MC. So I'll give that one to the priest (my time is short so my reasoning is simple Smile)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom, Jill Elinore wants you to leave the answer until at least tomorrow night, to give her chance to participate. So why don't you give a date in a few days, with at least 24 hours notice of when this will close?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3433
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure Deb no sooner than tomorrow night.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 295

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at it simply, on the surface at least, I’ll plump for
1- Pianist
2- Footballer
3- Priest

1-Pianist as : Water (Music) dominant, Sun in 6th –practice, Mercury in 5th using fingers for personal (subjective) pleasure, Pisces (Music) MC - Vocation or Career?

2 – Footballer as :Fire (Activity), Leo Rising (Courage), Moon in 6th - more receptive or habituated to the daily grind of training, Saturn in the 11th could be a good team player?

3 – Luminaries in the ‘belief’ houses. Mercury in the 11th - preaching to the masses. Jupiter conjunct Sun?

Strange for me looking at a chart without the Outers, although these generational objects may not shed any light on this conundrum. Ordinarily for Music and Religion I would alos look at Neptune for clues or lack of.

Chart 2 has a readymade narrative for religion and conservatism, and no strong urge for objective evidence with the luminaries in the 2nd quadrant. Chart 1 also has this Sag Sun in the 6th which is a reasonable script for a Theologian I suppose.

Can chart 3 be the footballer? Well, it’s a fixed psyche and this can give a fair bit of determination if not competitiveness. Moon in Leo needs to be noticed, but the Sun in the 12th isn’t an obvious sportsman. (Hopefully these charts are erected in Placidus ?). Chart 3 also has this Mer-Mars conjunction which may give the fingers a bit of energy. So Hmmm.

Anyway I’ll stick to the original guess and risk 3 dollars on it. Be interesting to find out who is the Pianist involved here. As was kind of mentioned earlier there is a big difference between the likes of Liberace, Keith Tippett, and Little Richard so one would assume little in common on their charts, or maybe not ?

Reading posts here over the years I’m sure one or more ‘traditionalists’ have taken the view Venus is, or was, the planet to look at for music so it will be interesting to see if this proves to have been a fundamental semantic symbol with this challenge.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 10, 11, 12  Next
Page 3 of 12

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated