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Mystery Chart Exercise March 3 2012
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuriy wrote:
Quote:


Oh yeah!
Triplicities!
Did you notice that jazz pianist Dave Brubeck middle years ruled by Venus (AC in water sign in nocturnal chart, triplicity ruler Venus)?
So Venus triggered his musician's career. That's another proof that better use system with Venus, Mars and Moon triplicity rulers ,versus Ptolemi's Mars,Mars, Moon. Otherwise he would stay serving in the army military orchestra.


Yes I thought this was an additional plus for chart 1 when Tom said he didn't start out as a musician. This is quite clear using the Dorothean triplicity ruler system with Venus ruling the second tripartite division of life.

Lilly's interpretation of Ptolemy's triplicity system (which is displayed as Ptolemy's essential dignities here on Skyscript) has Mars as day and night ruler of the water triplicity. However, this is an oversimplification of what Ptolemy actually says in the Tetrabiblos.

Ptolemy states: ,
Quote:
“the fourth triplicity is left to the last planet, Mars, which is related to it through its house, Scorpio, on account of the sect and because the signs are feminine, the Moon in the night, and Venus the day are co-rulers.” (Tetrabiblos I, 1Cool.


I am not sure how we apply this system to a tripartite division of life. Ptolemy quite possibly never used this approach anyway. However, Ptolemy's system puts focus on Mars and the Moon as joint ruler of the water triplicity in a night chart.

I think its quite significant that the Moon is in the term/bound of Venus in Chart 1. I dont know if many people picked up my earlier comment about the significance of term/bound ruler of the Moon (ASC /Sect light ruler) being in Venus in this chart using the Egyptian system. Ptolemy's system of terms seems much less revealing here with the Moon in the bound of Jupiter. Jupiter is MC ruler of the chart but in its sign of fall in Capricorn.

While I much admire Ptolemy as an astrological thinker on a practical level I dont use either his triplicity or term/bound systems.

Mark
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James-M wrote:
Quote:
.. what i find especially interesting is how some of the features on these 'trad' charts are essentially dumb notes that almost no one comments on... part of fortune - who commented on it? the nodes? almost no one... tripicities? face and etc etc??? the fact is either folks are too busy, or are relying heavily on certain parts of these trad charts and largely ignoring other parts.. that is something i find especially interesting.. it is hard for me to properly access when some posters mention so very little, but i am going on what i read..


I think you are being a tad hard on some of the 'trads' here. Smile I dont know how you can state people didn't comment on the dignities. Before Tom announced the result several people did this.

First, off this kind of exercise is not just a deadly serious test of our astrological skills. Noone's astrological reputuation rests on whether they get one of these challenges right or wrong. Its meant to fun! Its really an interesting exercise to test out our own delineation skills but hopefully avoids developing into a competition with 'winners' and 'losers'. As I think Deb commented somewhere on this thread this kind of exercise also allows many of us to test out ideas we may only have studied more theoretically. Such a process is possibly even more useful when we get it 'wrong' because it can assist us to challenge preconceptions or techniques that dont seem to hold up that well in practice. Having said that hitting the bullseye is nice too! Smile

In terms of general delineation I think many of us like to stick in an initial impression of a chart which may be more 'gut' and a little tongue in cheek at the beginning. However, you will see more detailed attempts at delineation later which do cover many of the points you raise. I think most astrologers of any type go through the process of initial 'eyeball' of a chart followed by a more analytical examination later.

Quote:
who commented on it? the nodes? almost no one...


Well I did in every chart! I mentioned the Moon on the NN in Chart 1. I mentioned Mars squaring both nodes in chart 2, and I mentioned the SN/NN along the ASC/DESC axis of chart 3. I felt the NN offered mitigation to the Moon in fall in chart one. I suggested Mars squaring the nodes accentuated its prominence and power in chart 2. I felt SN on the ASC and NN on the DESC gave a possible focus on self sacrifice and a life of service.

Looking at the lots I mentioned the Lot of Fortune squaring the Moon/Mercury in Chart 1. Cor Scorpii made an interesting comment highlighting the role of the Lot of Spirit in chart 3. I am sure there were other useful comments along the way. I just tend to remember my own better!

There is always the time factor too. Usually, I focus on fixed stars, and antiscion points but I just didn't have sufficient time to do that here.

Mark
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Data:

Chart No 1. Dave Brubeck
December 6, 1920
6:35 PM PST
Concord, CA (Not LA as previously posted sorry)

Chart No 2. Dick Butkus (Football Player)
Dec 9 1942
9:20 PM CWT
Chicago, IL

Chart No 3 Cardinal Kohl
Oct 26, 1910 CST
7:30 AM Cleveland OH

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Tom
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For perspective: I know that Europeans are probably no more knowledgeable about American Football than I am about European Football, so here is some information. Dick Butkus played defense. American football has unlimited substitution which resulted in a high degree of specialization. Players play particular positions either on offense or defense. No one plays both any longer. Butkus position is called "Middle Linebacker." He is the leader of the defense and he usually decides, how the defense will line up each play. His position is in the middle and behind the defensive "line," hence the term "middle linebacker. This position not only requires the player be big and very, very strong not to mention very, very fast he also has to be smart. Butkus, in his playing days was 6'3" and weighed 245 lbs. Linebackers are even bigger today. That he is generally considered one of the best ever at his position, indicates he was also a very smart player.

Cardinal Krol could speak 11 languages. He was considered liberal on political social policies, but on matters of Church doctrine and teaching he was very conservative. He attended all four sessions of the Second Vatican Council (1962 - 65). He was the youngest cardinal at the time of his appointment at age 50.

I'll be back.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried to re-read everything and it is just too much. I will note that I think it was Mark who noted, before I revealed the other professions, that No 2 loked like he engaged in self destructive activity. This is true. I know a woman, a fine horary astrologer, whose husband also played professional football. He is about my age maybe one or 2 years older, and she told me that as much fun and as exciting as their lives were when he played, she looks at him now, after numberous operations on his knees and other places, his difficulty walking and other physical ailments, if it was worth it. So yes it is a self destructive activity.

As for Brubeck, he is an interesting guy. First off if you don't know him here is his most famous piece: Take Five.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmDDOFXSgAs

The "Jazz Age" in the US was the 1920s. Brubeck was born in 1920. By the 1950s big bands were not as popular and too expensive to maintain. There were only a few. Small Groups began to dominate as a new form of jazz, unfortunately named "be-bop" began to take hold. Brubeck was an oddball even in this era. The vast majority of prominent jazz musicians were and are still black. Brubeck and most of his band (members came and went from time to time as was and is fairly common) were white. The prototypical jazz musician was born in New Orleans and if he could carry a horn he was viewed as something of an untutored genius. Brubeck could not read music, but he would eventually study classical music but he was well. educated.

His use of unusual (for jazz) time signatures was unique and gave away the fact that he was formally educated in music. He didn't play in whorehouses or seedy clubs for a living. Brubeck was something of an intellectual in jazz circles.

On a personal level he was and is a very sensitive man. I saw him interviewed a few years ago and his discussions of racial discrimination that he experienced and witnessed literally moved him to tears, not too surprising given all the water in his chart. Some people used he term "tortured soul." I think that is something of an exaggeration, but that he felt the pain of the racial discrimination practices is quite literally true. Brubeck more than once canceled appearances when he was told he could not bring the bass player who was black. In one instance he refused to play on a TV show for that reason, and the show relented. But Brubeck later found out they planned to position the musicians so that the bass player could not be seen on TV, he walked away from the opportunity. He is principled.

He is something of a philanthropist as well. I don't know if he is the wealthiest of the three. Butkus played in an era that predated huge salaries for athletes. He may still be well off. Brubeck apparently did well financially over the years.

His chart is strongly phlegmatic and unlike the phlegmatic nature of another musician, Janis Joplin, he did not end up dead of an overdose. In fact he is still alive and well at 92.

The next selection is called "The Duke," it is a musical tribute by Brubeck to American jazz composer and band leader Edward Kennedy "Duke" Ellington. Nice piece more traditional:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfLJN2ltEEI

I'll look at some astrology tomorrow.

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james_m



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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark,

maybe i am being a bit hard on the trad folks, lol.. i said something similar back on page 2 of this thread and i was sort of repeating myself in the later post... i agree with much of what you say and have said all along i think this is a fun thing to do! maybe you missed that part)))...

however, i still go with my comment about the pof or nodes being like dumb notes for some or many here.. a few folks commented on these points, but if you look closely deb never did - not that anyone has to, and some others were very brief in their comments - "vespertine Venus ruling by exaltation the MC" is as much as we got to read from margherita.. it is fine either way.. my reason for mentioning this is if you are going to leave out the outers fine, but i would like to see how the pof or nodal axis is useful to arrive at the conclusion that these 'trad' astrologers are using in these charts.. of course i said all this before too, so now i sound like a broken record, lol... and yes, you did mention the nodes in your posts... it was a general observation not directly at anyone specific..

some folks here may be quite busy with many activities that discourage them from posting as much as me and i understand that too.. for me this forum is very much about learning more about trad astrology.. if a chart is going to used that has info on it, perhaps someone can give the rationale for it in there comments on these charts, as i am not really seeing very much of it to date.. thanks for your comments!
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cor scorpii



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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Dick Butkus played defense.


That was my first impression when evaluating his Mars, because this fits perfectly with its position in a fixed, feminine/defensive Scorpio.

Quote:
Cardinal Krol could speak 11 languages.
Shocked
The ruler of the ascendant in a very close conjunction with Mercury(still applying) in a cardinal, airy sign strongly suggestive of exquisite intellectual capabilities which certainly include the quickness of learning; the applying Moon/Mercury sextile within the three degree orb!

And again, needles to say - when you have time and will, please repeat the exercise, Tom Thumbs up

Goran
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
for me this forum is very much about learning more about trad astrology.. if a chart is going to used that has info on it, perhaps someone can give the rationale for it in there comments on these charts, as i am not really seeing very much of it to date


OK, more rationale for you James. But first, let me correct you. You said:

Quote:
i still go with my comment about the pof or nodes being like dumb notes for some or many here.. a few folks commented on these points, but if you look closely deb never did


All my posts are limited by time and there’s always more I want to say than I can. That was the case when I made some quick comments on the chart, because I wanted to ‘play along’ even though I am straining my brain with other things at the moment. I should have thought that was obvious since below is the full extent of everything I had to say on the charts before Tom revealed who they were. The first post was to identify the musician when no other info was given, the 2nd after we knew a priest and footballer was also involved.

Quote:
Post 1: -
For me it is between chart 1 and Nothing in chart 2 strikes me as particularly expressive of musical talent. At first glance chart 3 looks the most obvious, but the MC ruler is not well placed in Libra and the planetary contacts to the MC are the Sun-Saturn opposition. It all seems a bit 'dry' and that looks to me like someone who does something for a living which is considered a task, or something heavy and serious, rather than something that is based on personal enjoyment. I'm supposing that any professional musician must find a sense of delight in music.

So I opt for chart 1, which I initially dismissed because of the Saturn contacts and debiliated state of the MC ruler. Now I am thinking that a pianist must have a good sense of structure and timing, and be able to practice hard, but still find it enjoyable. The key point for me is angular Venus in Capricorn on the sextile of the MC where it is exalted, and making good aspects to Mercury in the 5th and Saturn on the IC, which is joined to the MC ruler. I've noted many times that actors, musicians and those who perform in the arts as a profession have either a luminary or the MC ruler in the 5th house, so I'll opt for chart 1, with chart 3 as my second choice.
----

Post 2:

Chart 2 looks most like the chart of a famous footballer to me. That's the one with the most powerful Mars (ruling MC, in dignity, trine Jupiter which squares the MC). It also fits with the 5th house link to public performers.
I imagine the famous footballer would be the wealthiest of the three - not sure what to make of that with Mercury in detriment combust the Sun. On the other hand it is conjunct Venus and trine the NN on the 2nd cusp.

Chart 3 has the Moon in the 9th and ruling 9th cusp, with Sun ruling most of 9th house and in aspect to MC. So I'll give that one to the priest (my time is short so my reasoning is simple )


So “if you look closely” you’ll see I did mention the nodes in the four sentences I wrote about the footballer in my 2nd post. It puzzled me that the footballer’s chart wasn’t showing signs of wealth, because I thought it was a modern footballer and forgot (as Tom pointed out) that the mega-money status of footballers is a modern phenomenon, and a western one too. Since Tom said the people involved may or may not be famous I assumed (again wrongly) that the footballer was probably the only one who would be famous enough for me to have heard of him. To me the node connections to angles or planets are of interest in every chart, but I only commented on it here because it related to what was puzzling me - as something that contradicted other negative indications of wealth (like the fact that the 2nd-ruler, POF, and the Moon which is the POF dispositor, are debilitated). Sometime the POF can be a dumb-note for me, unless I am looking at something where it is particularly relevant, such as indications of wealth. I’m less interested in lots and parts than many traditional astrologers, and I only ever treat them as supporting indications. I also blank out the nodes (and outer planets), unless they are connected to a planetary significator or angle.

My whole analysis of what turned out to be the priest’s chart was one line, but I find that chart very interesting and took notice of a lots of things. But my posts only summarised a few keys points, and my comments on all three charts put the focus on what found expression through the MC. That’s relevant, because I think the reason why this challenge worked out so well, even with quick analysis, was:

1) we were looking to identify three different types of professions

2) we were not trying to judge the profession of three people who just had a job, but three people who each had a commitment their work – to be a professional musician, footballer or priest, you have to have a deep interest in those three different types of activities. So we were dealing with people with vocations, a word which describes what we identify to be our ‘calling’ in life, or where we delight to express ourselves.

So … (more fully), my reasoning was this:

Chart 1 – the musician.
His MC-ruler Jupiter is debilitated essentially and below the horizon, but powerfully placed on the MC-IC axis, conjunct Saturn and receiving the square of the Sun – a good thing, except the Sun is also under the horizon. Overall that shows commitment and self-drive, being strongly ‘rooted’ and needing time to mature things ‘in the dark’. But that is what goes deep, not what finds obvious outward expression in his public career. It’s Venus that makes the closest aspect to the MC degree, and everything about the connection of Venus is good, because it is not only angular and simultaneously sextiling the MC and trining the MC-ruler, and the angular Saturn with reception, it is powerful by every sect consideration. By phase it is as potent as any planet can be, because it’s an occidental planet and its distance behind the Sun is the one where it finds its strongest expression throughout the two-fold inferior planet cycles. So we know that this person delights to express that Venus in his work, and it is going to be the most obvious significator of whatever he puts out in his public persona. This is almost certainly why Margherita, in making only one key observation on the chart, chose this point. I’m sure she could have said a lot more, but sometimes saying more becomes less, because it takes the emphasis away from what matters most.

Chart 2 – the footballer
The MC is in Aries, ruled by Mars, and his 5th house Sun is in a fire sign and trining the Asc and MC – of the three professions given this is the one that shows the necessary indications of heat, action and energy.
Mars as MC-ruler is dignified essentially and accidentally, and ‘like engirdling’ the degree of the MC. It is also connected to the degree of the nodes, as is the MC-degree. Like Venus in the musician chart, Mars is in its most powerfully expressive phase (oriental and separated from the Sun between 30-60°), so this is an extremely ‘vigorous’ Mars, which also gives a lot of determination and stamina because it is in its fixed sign and receiving a sextile from the Capricorn Moon by exaltation. This is all going on underneath the horizon, showing what he draws from, so it needs some other planet to bring its expression outwards for this person to gain public attention. It’s the exalted Jupiter that does this, being on the trine of Mars and the square of the midheaven. So what we see of him professionally is also going to carry the signature of Jupiter in some way. I don’t know his story but from what Tom wrote it sounds like he was well liked. I’d imagine him to be someone who was aggressive on the pitch but also considered to be generous and benevolent. He had a lot of power, but it’s controlled power and operates through Jupiter. Jupiter, as ruler of the 8th and in the 12th house makes me think that he must have suffered some personal set backs and that he also needs his privacy and didn’t go ‘clamouring for fame’.

Chart 3 – the priest
I like the way this chart shows the priest to be a true theologian and ‘man of God’ by the Mercurial theme, the Moon in the 9th and the rulership of both luminaries over the 9th house signs. Here the POF on the Virgo MC is worth noting. The MC and POF ruler, Mercury, is fairly strong by phase because its arc from the Sun is a good one, but it’s oriental so the phase is not notably powerful and expressive, as it was in the other two charts. Mercury is afflicted by a debilitated Mars, so this man must spend a lot of time involved in disputes and arguments, and he must feel afflicted by them. That’s not something he ‘delights’ in, but what he can’t avoid. If anything, it ties him up with frustration. But he’s Scorpio rising so he can’t fail to fight for his causes and hold on to his arguments. It’s the Sun that draws attention because it disposes the 9th house Moon and connects to the degree of the MC which has Fortuna sitting on it by partile sextile. I’m sure he feels that much of his work is driven by the glorification of God. But the Sun is in the 12th house and opposed by Saturn, so he expects his work to be a commitment, of labour and dedication, and he wants to honour something historical and traditional. We can’t take Saturn out of the picture because it’s within minutes of a trine to the MC. This is the perfect picture of a conservative Catholic priest, who likes to study scriptures but can’t avoid theological or political disputes, who tends to get involved in what is happening in public affairs (most planets above the horizon), but thinks that he really wants privacy (Sun in 12th), yet expects to suffer hardship because that is what it’s all about (Sun opp Saturn).

I have no idea if any of the above is right or not in its details, because the biographies of these characters are unknown to me, but that’s what I noticed when I made my quick remarks without spelling it all out, not looking at anything except what I can quickly take note of in the chart wheels that Tom presented. The challenge was only to identify the musician, and then the footballer and priest, and to give some reasoning for the choices (to show we are not randomly guessing but actually using astrology).

One point which others may consider controversial. Essential dignity is something I always consider but I think that its importance often gets overstated. An essentially dignified planet in a place where it can’t find expression is a red herring, and a planet that lacks dignity essentially can do a lot if it has the right supporting factors. As I said before, this challenge was a good one because we are looking at what comes out of the MC which is the most powerfully expressive angle in the chart and shows what the public is able to notice and observe. I personally wouldn’t think of looking at the minor essential dignities for something like this, and I wouldn’t expect such powerful contacts to the degree of the MC in the charts of people who work as a means to a paycheck, or maybe don’t get noticed by others for the contribution they make to their field.

So now over to you … what was it you noticed in the charts and refrained from posting? Smile I will have to be no more than a reader for a while because of my 'brain-strain' commitment.
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Nixx



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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps we should have had 5 charts to consider in the light of Brubeck’s famous tune. I would prefer 5 in these types of challenges, reduces the chance factor.

In response to Mark’s question about the outers here changing the choice. For music Psychological astrologers factor in Neptune contacts to the Luminaries, Venus and Saturn. (Venus would be seen as important as Neptune, maybe more so, but it would mainly depend on the intentions and effects of the music in question and these relationships with the ‘collective’, as Neptune is a generational symbol). Brubeck has a tight solar trine and 6’ Lunar square so a plausible reason to suggest Neptune has some importance in his life. Not a major influence perhaps but I wouldn’t label what I’ve heard of his music, which isn’t that highly rated by the musical cognoscenti, as Neptunian. Further Jazz tends not to be seen as Neptunian or transpersonal. It’s a more cerebral or Mercurial listens, although Venusian as well in group form as the musician needs to listen attentively and value the contributions of the others. Perhaps overall less Saturnian, with Jazz often being less bounded, rigid, formal, disciplined, limiting, etc. Although folks like Jan Garbarek have put more Neptune into the genre in more recent times.

If the musician was a dirty blues singer grunting on about fornication then they might want to see a Venus Pluto aspect or if the musician was an atonal iconoclast then they may want to see Uranus prominent.

Anyway, the interest for me here was the role of ‘traditional’ Venus in the chart. So these factors seem to have been found quite significant:

Venus angular (the only one of the 3), exaltation ruler of MC, Ruler of 5th (is this because the 5th was linked to arts or even music specifically and consistently in the tradition?), aspects MC (Sextile 2’) and Mercury, sextile again, in the 5th (so again the 5th being seen as relevant), Venus/Mercury contacts seen as relevant as well, in sect, occidental, ruler of Asc in a house ruled by Venus..................

What I’d like to know is why Venus was seen as the significator for Music. It rules Taurus and Libra, were these signs seen as more musical than others? How did we arrive at a situation in the late 20th century where Pisces was seen as the Musical sign, is this solely to do with Neptune being given its co / rulership? Is this Piscean notion, irrespective of Neptune, antagonistic to traditional conceptions?

Also, what about temperament theory. Is the Phlegmatic the preference for a love of, interest in or ability with? Or another, or none of them all that explicitly?

(Incidentally this Psychological Neptune/Pisces emphasis wouldn’t necessarily enable someone to be a good musician or composer, in fact probably not. Music is used here to temporarily escape from ‘reality’ ,employed to rearrange, sort, scan the mental contents of the day in order to enter the next one having made some more sense of the previous one, like the function or purpose of dreams . It also produces ecstasy, which is seen as a Neptunian 'state of mind'. Music reduces anxiety as well which Pisceans can find a little endemic and problematic. Whereas the Psychological Venus might help a lot constgruction wise as this is more involved with a ‘form’ of beauty and the ‘expression ‘of emotion. With Harmony, the primary definitions of what music are imagined to produce or provide.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to reiterate the purpose of these exercises and that can be done in a single word: Fun. This is not a test of traditional astrology. It's not a test of anyone's ability. On the other hand given the high level of knowledge and ability around here, it is a good way to learn as well, regardless of that level of ability. Beginner's, people new to traditional astrology and experts can all contribute to the thread and enjoy themselves in the process. There are no prizes, no wall of fame.

I did not put up the data or the outer planets in order to disguise the identity of the people involved. Fifteen minutes with an ephemeris and we can pinpoint a date. Once we pinpoint a date we can look up birthdays and from there pick out a famous individual. And yes people do that. It's been done here before. Furthermore since this is the traditional Forum, the outer planets should not be necessary for delineation.

Vocation, or life's calling is what we are looking for. Life doesn't always work out that way. I'm sure there are people on Skyscript who are better suited for work other than what they are doing. Circumstances just didn't work out for them. Oldsters like me remember the TV show "The Fugitive." Not all that long ago a movie based on the TV show starring Harrison Ford was released. The plot revolved around a highly competent physician who was wrongfully convicted of murdering his wife. He manages to escape and during his quest to prove his innocence he takes on various jobs in order to survive.

His chart might show "physician" but if, in his attempt to hide from his arch enemy, the policeman charged with capturing him, he stopped by an astrologer's den and told the astrologer he was tending bar at a local pub, what would the astrologer think? "Oh you like people so you help them." That may be all the chart can show.

In my attempt to disguise the charts I said the other two may or may not be famous. Then decided to reveal the vocations of the other two. I don't know if that was a great idea or not. Maybe I should have left well enough alone. I did it in order to answer a few questions that I thought were valid. I'll have to think on that before doing it again. I probably should state at the outset if the subject is famous or not. When I came up with the exercise I did just pull out people at random, except Brubeck. I saw Butkus' chart and remembered him from his playing days, and I thought sticking a religious in with a kind-hearted jazz musician and a football player would be kind of a fun thing. There was no purpose other than that.

I still want to get to Brubeck's chart and I will later on. But for the next time, let's keep this exercise in perspective. And most importantly have fun with it.

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Deb
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What I’d like to know is why Venus was seen as the significator for Music.


I'm not sure that it is *the* significator, because 'music' is a broad term in itself. In Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, Venus and Mercury together give good indications of music as a vocation. In the planetary rulership of the seven liberal arts, music is goverened by the Sun.

However, music is one of the things that Venus is strongly associated with traditionally. One reference I have to hand right now is Lilly's Christian Astrology p.74, where he lists the professions associated with Venus, and mentions as the first word in his list 'musicians'.

Tom - I just clicked the link you gave to Brubeck's famous tune. Now I know that he did that tune I feel as though I know him better Smile
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margherita



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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion and how I read Tetrabiblos (through Cieloeterra teachings) we don't need nodes or triplicities or so on, at least if we follow Ptolemy method...

This is not a complete reading of the native, it's just a specific question- the quality of the actions- which has a specific significator- this is the only one I cared.

So I believe the chart n.1 has Venus very highlighted, in agreement with the rules listed in that chapter: Venus has the right heliacal phase, rules the MC, and it is aspecting Mercury (which is another indication of art profession). For me it is enough- but I especially liked and agree extensive Goran's reading.

margherita
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varuna2



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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 5:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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Atlantean



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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Nixx,

May I ask if you are a musician? (not because I think you are, just for my own curiosity)

Re: Not seeing Jazz music as Neptunian,....specifically Take Five by Dave Brubek.

Hmmm... I have a different perspective. Most jazz music is performed by musicians who firmly learn "the rules" and then try to step outside those rules in order to emote. This does sound Neptunian. (to me anyways, as Neptune (here) is being the "antidote" to Saturn's tried-and-true, overly structured way of doing things). Alexander Marr has mentioned that Neptune (in music) works contrary to a perfect sense of timing... I think this relates as well to the sound created by odd meters. The 1 of the bar comes after 5 quarter notes, not 4 (as would be expected). Were else do I see Neptune relating to this piece of music? It has been used extensively in TV and movie soundtracks. (to a modern, Neptune rules motion pictures and rapid-sequence flash of images that allow both TV and movies to function) Where else? To moderns, Neptune also carries the idea of "overseas". Brubek was inspired to work on music such as this with uneven meters after having been exposed to Turkish performers playing with uneven meter in their native music. Where else? To a modern, Neptune rules charity (in having sympathy/empathy for/with those less fortunate). The writer of this song has signed over all of the royalties for this song to the American Red Cross. This is some $100,000 per year to help with their social aid programs. (again, Neptune to a modern)

Concerning jazz music in general, much of jazz music takes a very tight structure and uses that to freely improvise over. It is not some structured thing in the sense that the listener can anticipate each note. The musician himself is choosing notes AS HE GOES, based on what everyone is playing. When listening to jazz music, this adds immensely to its "escapist" feel (again, escapism being a Neptune word)...as if at any time, anything could happen. The listener is "forced" to ride along soaring with the melodies as they happen. Listening, but not fully knowing what to expect and forces a higher level of attention, generally, and this attention on the moment-by-moment events of the music transports the listener away from other thoughts before his conscious, again an escapist element.

I am a musician and from my perspective, I see Neptune all over it.

I understand that your opinion is likely different than this, but that only points to our difference of perspective, which is a subjective thing.

Hope this helps you to see where I am coming from with my comments concerning Neptune, music and specifically this piece of music. (the chart-owner's most popular piece of music)

I also have to agree with the thrust of Deb's comments...if I understand her correctly. Depending on the elements of the music and what it's for, it may have different planetary connections. If the concept of "hammer" has an astrological correlary, then surely a hammer that is being used to build houses for the homeless must be distinguishable from a hammer used to cave in someone's head in order to steal beer money.

Re: Deb's comment about Mercury and Venus

Isaac Starkman has repeatedly shown the major Mercury-Venus connections (geo/helio) of extremely successful musicians, so there must be something to it! Besides, I am a musician and have Mercury-Venus prominent, so I can't argue with him. Wink ...and oh, by the way, more prominent than either Mercury or Venus in my chart is... wait for it... Smile Neptune. When I express myself creatively, I do it through Neptune, which makes sense since Neptune sits right on my 5th cusp and trines my Sun...and I tend to do it through music.

Peace

James
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Isaac Starkman has repeatedly shown the major Mercury-Venus connections (geo/helio) of extremely successful musicians, so there must be something to it!


I hadn't even noticed until now that Mercury is in strong aspect to the MC and Venus too (MC at 21 Pisces, Venus 23 Cap, Mercury, 24 Scorpio)

FYI, this is what Ptolemy says in his 4th book of the Tetrabiblos (from Ashmand's ed because it was easy to grab the text off the web):

Quote:
Further, should it happen that two arbiters of employment may be found together, and provided they should be Mercury and Venus, they will then produce musicians, melodists, and persons engaged in music, poetry, and songs.
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