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ayanamsha
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varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
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Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:26 am    Post subject: ayanamsha Reply with quote

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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:06 am    Post subject: Re: ayanamsha Reply with quote

Varuna2 wrote:
Quote:
Has there been further research and work on the ayanamsa in the west, since the days of Fagan/Bradley?

There was a statistical study done on rainfall in relation to Jupiter ingresses which a forum member posted on another forum. Is the entire article available preferably online somewhere, otherwise in book form?

Varuna, although western sidereal astrologers don't like to admit it, that study in my opinion is highly questionable. No raw data is available, which would make the entire study unacceptable by academic standards. At any rate, it would be easy to design a new study based on heavy rainfall in different areas of the world.

Quote:
It appears that western siderealists following the Fagan/Bradley ayanamsha tend to use a system which involves progressions(?) and the timing of events, but that they do not use divisional charts such as the navamsha 9th chart.

This is true. They do not use divisional charts such as the navamsa chart.

Quote:
It seems that there can only exist one ayanamsha, and this ayanamsha should work not only through the contemporary western siderealist techniques but with the jyotish divisional charts as well.

In principle, I agree with that statement. This is why I believe India's use of divisional charts is the key to a correct sidereal zodiac.

Quote:
The problem I am having is that when using the F/B ayanamsha, the divisional chart information (including the D-9 navamsha) falls apart in comparison with my previous understanding using a different ayanamsha. The data changes dramatically and I am not sure that it becomes more accurate.

I have found the results to be the same, Varuna. The F/B ayanamsa does not work for India's divisional charts. Thus, research would very likely eliminate that ayanamsa. We don't have enough information on Bradley's original study to duplicate the parameters. We would have to start over from scratch. Somewhere I have the rainfall article, but I would have to search for it. My final opinion is that the rainfall study is highly questionable, and with no raw data available, it's virtually worthless.
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varuna2



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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:04 am    Post subject: Re: ayanamsha Reply with quote

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varuna2



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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:06 am    Post subject: Re: ayanamsha Reply with quote

Varuna2 wrote:
Quote:
Therese, it was my understanding that this study was done through an academic institution and the standards were acceptable when it was done.

Perhaps, but the study is old, and it would not be used as acceptable evidence for the F/B zodiac today. I have found some notes on the rainfall study. Bradley drew up charts for the Caplunar ingress (the entrance of the Moon into F/B Capricorn), and supposedly Jupiter was in angular positions for the month of heavy rainfall following that ingress.

Quote:
I understand your sentiments though, that if we only have the results to look at, and not the rest of the study, then the entire study becomes useless and meaningless and unverifiable.

Yes, but it would be fairly easy to design a similar study using more recent rainfall records.

Quote:
The only people who would like that study are those who use the F/B ayanamsha, since it could imply the other zodiacs are wrong, and we all have vested interests in whatever we use. I don't like its implications either, for the reasons we both mentioned, but I think I could learn something from that study.

There is a link to the James Eshelman web site under the Sources of Information topic here. Why not go to that site and ask about the rainfall study?

Quote:
p.s. What is the source of that idea you presented in another thread about people used to see a grey sky and now it appears blue? I would like to know how long ago that was, and who said that.

I cannot remember where I saw that bit of information. I remembered it because it was so interesting. Since I don't have the source, it is only hearsay.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

varuna2 wrote:
To the reader: Which ayanamsha do you use and why?

I use the Krishnamurti ayanamsa because the timing of Dasa and bhukti periods is more exact. The Lahiri value gives dates for periods that begin too late. Also the Krishnamurti ayanamsa gives more precise crossovers between the natal and navamsa chart within a person's chart and between charts in compatibility studies. But more studies are necessary in that area.
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varuna2



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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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SGFoxe



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Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a tropicalist, when it comes to maya -- I think Mayan

The thrust of western astrology from its beginnings to Copernicus has been to discover the SOLAR system -- the nature of SPACE.

Prior to Copernicus the western thinking (wo)man's weltanschaaung generally had some planetary derivative -- generally jupiter -- as the ruling principal/ple -- but with the understanding of locally spacial heliocentricity the Sun's place came out of the Surd (AB -- SURD) ergo Reformation of our understanding of the Heavens cracking the very foundations of the Church which revised TIME by issuing Hildebrand's Papal Bull, this the true 10 days that shook the world, the katarche of revolutions -- the french, american and russian hatched from Leda's nest, the final Hesiodian revolution -- apollo overthrowing zeus.

While Columbus & the other explorers revamped our understanding of the oblatetitude of the earth's sphericity (hipster rap poet Lord Buckley.

In my explorations of Vedic/Jyotisa (there are a lot of interesting arguments regarding the beginning of the Zodiac -- Rohini (Aldebaran)generally accepted view which is where the Tropical Aries point (about which there is no dispute) was at the beginning of the 5th Great Mayan Age and the Kali Yuga in 3100 BC, though I like the Orion Zodiac, which notes as fiducial the intersection of the Galactic Disc (Milky Way) with the solar ecliptic disc. The River of Eloquence -- now dried up -- the Saraswati is its terrestial correlate, as the Nile was the correlate of the Milky Way on the Egyptian earth.

With respect to Ayanamsa notes the problem ... Sidereal 0 Aries does not exist but is extrapolated ... hamal Alpha Aries is at 8 Sidereal -- generally Spica/Arcturus are the fiducials 180 degrees (depending on your ayanamsa) from the asterism that should be 0 Sidereal Aries (hencefore 0*Aries -- the asterisk implying sidereal -- just like in Babylon) the Nakshatra Revata containing the point.

The great Maga Brahmin (implying Solar dynasty) astrologer, Vaharamihira, ca 550 ad, considered the confluence of the zodia to be in the future ... and, I believe in his terrors of the coming occurrence recorded in his Brihat Jataka predicted Mohammed, implying his ayanamsa some 4 degrees of difference from the Ptolemaic 221 ad.

In this Mayan age -- 2012 is a lot of maya after all -- 1999 sometime in december the astronomical era 2000.0 began (I like to use 9/9/1999) this commemorated the precession of the tropical solstice point to the galactic disc -- ground zero anyone?

Note that precessional factors will conjunct the degree of SagA -- the black hole at the center of the galaxy around the Solstice 2227 AD

I believe the strange extreme weather we've been having, from tsumanis to tornados, eerily mild winters are part of this Galactic -- End of Days effect.

Given the 26K precessional wobble which is records the dynamic relationship of the Terrestial Axis of Rotation to the Galactic Disc ... this particular relationship which has an analogous relationship every 12.x thousand years when the solstices precess through the Galactic Plane and Galactic Cdnter (Sag A at 6*Sagittarius) the earth is subjected more powerfully to Galactic (centripetal and fugal) Forces -- RH doesn't seem to understand (he is capable of learning however) that the relationship between the Earth's Axis and the Galactic Plane is dynamic -- eg not fixed, which the Mayans were very aware of, orienting their settlements not so much on a north south east west grid, but rather parallel/perpendicular to the angle of the Galactic Disc and the Cardinal directions. You can tell the age of an archeological mayan settlement by these changing angles.

This is evidenced by the 12.xx thousand year cycle of the Ice Ages. 12kya (kya means thousands of years ago) (the zodiacs precess at a rate of a millenium per nakshatra) the Black Mat -- a 4 inch stripe in the geological record which represents one thousand years of time ... the last time the solstices precessed through Mrgadisha & Mula.

This also repesents the time of the GREAT EXTINCTION -- the geological record documents the artifacts of the great MegaFauna hunted by the prevailing biContinental Clovis culture prior to the Black Mat -- while there are no more megafauna after the black mat and the hunting weaponry of the Clovis culture has evolved into the Folsom artifacts which are obviously genetically relating but adapted to smaller game.

BS dismisses this as a trivial change in subsistence.

The same level of forces that effected the change of Clovis into Folsom cultures along with the geological changes are in effect today.

The Mayans apparently used the crossing of the Galactic Disc/Center with the Ecliptic -- a point as abstract and fixed as the intersection of the Equatorial/Terrestial Plane with that of the Solar/Ecliptical Plane -- as the Galactic Aries (Beginning/Ending) Point, but since is, however abstract, REAL and geometrically defined ...

This obviously would resolve any and all Ayanamsa questions. This being one of the positive aspects of the 2012 apocalypse (apocalypse all you hellenes means revelation, satori) wherein we find universal portals of time and space ... beginning and ending of time.

Time began with the first spin of the Terrestial Axis of Rotation.

It is a geocentric dimension -- it is not universal -- every spinning entity in our system and out of the Solar System has its own temporal structure of interrelated spins -- ours being rotation, the monthly barycentric dos si dos with the moon, the revolution about the sun, and the 26K wobble.

The axis of Jupiter is an entirely different ball game.

Since our temporal paradigm is built into our dna via clock genes and other genetic mechanisms -- i think our temporal paradigm resonates with frequency of say the carbon atom stimulating into the dance of life -- but the frequencies of the Jupiterian axis may stimulate other atomic structures and create its own dimension and life forms -- we may not be capable of penetrating the particular dimension of other cosmic entities, the unfolded dimensions of the theoretical physist.

Time is Geocentric and the Ptolemaic weltanschaaung pretty much describes how the solar system acts upon the terrestial axis of rotation -- the primary revision in thought is that while time is geocentric, it's generator the TAR -- the terrestial axis (also known as Zervan, Aeion, the DemiUrgos its spiritualized aspect) is as abstract and genderless as a Divinity which is not fixed by is the Prime Mover of Time.
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varuna2



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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Diego Alejandro Torres



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Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:08 pm    Post subject: Ayanamsha in mundane astrology Reply with quote

Hi all.

Ayanamsa What is the most accurate for use in Mundane Astrology?

It is important to use a precise ayanamsa mundane astrology, for 1 minute difference can make a sign be given different topics Ascending mundi solar income, etc.. For this reason it is important to know what the ayanamsa more accurate to use in mundane astrology.

Please if anyone has experience in mundane astrology using the sidereal zodiac, please reply to this message.

Thank you very much in advance!
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delaforge



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Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: Ayanamsha Reply with quote

Varuna,

In your original post, you say:

Quote:
It appears that western siderealists following the Fagan/Bradley ayanamsha tend to use a system which involves progressions(?) and the timing of events, but that they do not use divisional charts such as the navamsha 9th chart.

Cyril Fagan and Brigadier Firebrace used progressions and their successors continue to do so.

I don't know what use, if any, modern siderealists make of the navamsha but Fagan certainly used it. He called it the novenic equivalent. On the basis that the first sign of the zodiac, when the zodiac eventually came into being, was Taurus (vide the lunar mansions, Vedic and western, which appear to have started in Taurus originally and had the designation 'first mansion' transferred to a place in Aries at a later date), Fagan calculated the navamsha from the first point of Taurus.

The resultant non-equivalence between Fagan's novenic equivalent and the Vedic navamsha may have contributed to a low or zero take-up of the technique among modern day siderealists.

As I already said, I can't speak on behalf of modern day siderealists. Perhaps other visitors to this thread would care to state whether they use the novenic equivalent/navamsha or some form of the ninth harmonic in their astrological work.

Melissa
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varuna2



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Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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delaforge



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Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Ayanamsha Reply with quote

Varuna,

Fagan provides in at least two of his books a table by means of which one can ascertain the navamsha position of any factor – planet, nodes, ascending degree – in a chart but taking 0° Taurus as the beginning of the zodiac. In one book he gives the navamsha (he calls it the novenic equivalent) for a timed birth and discusses some of the chart’s features.

I am not aware that his idea of the novenic equivalent caught on but I have no contact currently with the western sidereal movement so could be wrong. Back in the day, I read Carl Stahl and James Eshelman and do not recall either dealing with the novenic equivalent. However, at my age the memory isn’t what it was and so stand open to correction.

What I remember is that, back in the ’70s western siderealists showed more interest in the dwad, as they often termed it: the dwadachamsha.
Quote:
I wonder about the decision to base it at the start of Taurus, since krittika goes into Aries 3 degrees and 20 minutes.

Fagan, Bradley et al would not have been using the lunar mansions as a basis for what they were doing. They would stoutly have defended the view expressed by Rupert Gleadow in The Origin of the Zodiac. Gleadow traces the origin of the zodiac (i.e. a circle of 12 ‘signs’ named after the Ram, the Bull, Twins or Couple, and so on) to the Middle East – the Assyrian civilization, I believe – as late as (approximately) 650 b.c.e. This partly on the basis that the 12 signs are not in evidence on the mulAPIN tablet (c. 700 b.c.e.). Gleadow deals with India and the nakshatras in one chapter of his book but looks primarily for the birthplace of the zodiac where most western minds of the mid-twentieth century would expect to find it: the Near or Middle East, Babylon or Egypt.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The early western siderealists of the Fagan school tossed around a number of ideas that never caught on with those who followed them. Two of these ideas were the novien chart (the 9th harmonic chart calculated from Taurus), and a zodiac that began with Libra! This was Fagan's idea which he based on his research into Egyptian symbols.

Today's followers of the Fagan school have mostly dispensed with everything but the planets and angles of the chart, plus work with a number of different return charts and systems of progressions. Even signs of the zodiac are given little or no emphasis by some practitioners. The Fagan school of sidereal astrology is very different from Jyotish. Jyotish itself is much closer in some ways to Tropical and early western Classical astrology than to the Fagan system.

Therese
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delaforge



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Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:18 am    Post subject: Ayanamsha Reply with quote

A point to clear up first, Therese. When you say 'the Fagan school', do you mean western siderealists in general (give or take the odd individualist who has gone off to plow her/his own furrow)? Or are you distinguishing between the Fagan school and other western siderealists?

I suspect you mean the former, which makes me very depressed. As does the following:
Quote:
Today's followers of the Fagan school have mostly dispensed with everything but the planets and angles of the chart, plus work with a number of different return charts and systems of progressions. Even signs of the zodiac are given little or no emphasis by some practitioners.

That's close to the approach of UK astrologers of the '50s & early '60s. Astrologers like Lyndoe (see his Everyman's Astrology). It's the attitude that drove me out of the Tropical milieu into a Sidereal world, with a push from Gleadow's Origin of the Zodiac. Ironic, then, that a realm that seemed so rich and varied compared to the arid state of Tropicalism has now become something of an intellectual desert itself.

It was the attitude also that drew others to re-examine the status of Traditional Astrology. Lyndoe had no time for concepts such as Fertile Signs and Human Signs and the rest. But then he had no time for horary astrology, where these terms have a use. I don't remember him ever mentioning horary, either in his articles or his books.

I recall Fagan's idea that the first sign of the zodiac ought to be Libra - something about Librans being keen on hats (first sign = head)? That last part could be a misremembering.

Thanks for bringing me up to date on the Fagan system as it is used today. I'm shocked, but would rather know truth than not know.

Melissa
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