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Lilly's Considerations
compiled by D. Houlding
Book II of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
translated by David Pingree
Compiled by Deborah Houlding
The Babylonian Astrolabe: the Calendar of Creation, by Rumen K. Kolev
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Sidereal ascendant, appearance and constitution
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 295

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
Nixx wrote:

Bad typo on my part should have written Earth not Air. Water remains Rational. What led you to think it was perceived by Psychological Astrologers as Irrational?


Yes, that's true that Jung does refer to water as part of the rationale types, but psychological astrologers refer to Water as irrational and refer to Air as rational. Obviously the typo meant you didn't mean air. But they still refer to water as irrational. When Jung refers to rational and irrational he does not mean it in the colloquial sense. Perhaps you didn't either, and your typo is what made that not obvious

I don't think anyone can doubt Liz Greene's credentials as a psychological astrologer so I'll use her as an example, but in truth the same idea is found by several other authors.
Astrology for Lovers, Liz Greene
Quote:

The element of water...is the most 'primitive' in that it is furthest from the rational realm that we are pleased to call human thought.
...
The water signs move like the realm of nature: with instinct, at home with that which is nonrational, unexplainable, sometimes magical. They are all motivated by feeling - and feeling, as everyone except a few fanatical material scientists will admit, is not something that you can measure by statistics, define by hypothesis, contain with rationally defined laws.


Clearly Greene is also using it in the colloquial sense of the word. This book is in fact littered with examples of water being referred to as irrational.



I can see where your thinking came from now. I doubt Jung referred to Water as one of the rational types as I don’t recall any explicit or even implicit astrological underpinnings to his typology.

My hunch is Greene might refer you to Jung's ideas on the ''Introverted Rational Type'' and suggest Water is similar to his ''Introverted Feeling Type''. The former type functions with this ‘reasoning judgement’ mentality, regardless of subjective or objective orientations to the 'object'. The Water element , for her, describes how life is experienced on this deeper more non-verbal what is the value of something level so perhaps these watery processes appear as more irrational than they actually are. Feelings tend to be quite rational processes in other words and have useful or even logical evolutionary benefits.

I recall Dione in 'Jungian Birth charts' seeing Water as irrational. Perhaps due to Jung's ideas on superior and inferior functions, namely how can rationality be both inferior and superior synonymously and does this jar with Jung’s polarity matrix. This psyche model is seen by Psychological Astrologers as a similar to , if not based on, the Horoscopic with its axial semantic geometric structures.

To probe more into these potential anomalies I would need her books to hand, and others. Astrology for Lovers I recall being a 'simpler' text designed to get the layman interested, so using a term like rational in a less colloquail way may have been a conscious choice on her part ? Also unless a Sidereal Astrologer has some knowledge and interest here it probably ought to be on another thread.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 658
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:
Quote:
On a personal note: my second son has sidereal Leo rising with no planets in it. For the first few years of his life, almost everyone seeing him for the first time commented on the size and beauty of his eyes. At the age of 14, the rest of his face has caught up with them, but they are still noticeable.


Any planets aspecting the ascendant, Martin? Also I've seen planets on the navamsa ascendant show up in the appearance. They also seem to show up in the personality.
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 927
Location: Delhi

Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On eyes:

Brihat Parasara Hora:

12. Eyes. If Dhan Lord(2nd lord) is endowed with strength, the native will possess beautiful eyes. Should the said Graha(planet) be in Ari(6th), Randhr(8th), or Vyaya Bhava(12th), there will be disease, or deformity of eyes.


http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Taylor%2C_Elizabeth(Tropical chart)

Sidereal Scorpio rising, Jupiter second lord exalted in Cancer.Venus is exalted in pisces
Sun is in sidereal aquarius but this is not considered a detriment in Jyotisha.

PD
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1305
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
I'm not sure why you say that Margherita - Lilly gives the typical corporature significations of the Sun on p.70 of CA and the Moon on p.81. These are only taken from older works; for example very similar to those we find in the text of Alcabitius. Bonatti, in his 3rd book, references Dorotheus and Umar for saying that the Sun rules the right eye and the left one of women. But he also says this which sounds very similar to the point you are making: "Dorotheus said the figure of the Sun and the Moon is like the figure of the planets who are with them, and of him who is more worthy in their places".


I was specifically talking about the assessment of temperament, because temperament is not just how a native reacts, but it's about the shape of body. Medieval doctors recognized temperament from this.

It's true that eyes are under Lights, but honestly I would associate them more with diseases of the eyes ( we have tons of quotes) rather than the shape of body.

Bright eyes can be find especially with Pisces, with Venus, and with cold and moist temperament.

In effect some authors describe lunar and solar complexions, but they are mostly depicting phlegmatic and choleric temperament. I generally use as quick manual Della Porta and he says many times that when he talks about the qualities of the planets (included the Lights) he is talking about their primary qualities, ie the four temperaments.

But in effect as Martin says there are different methods and they should not in agreement.
In every case there are tons of texts with Pisces rising where bright eyes are mentioned, so at least we know it is not modern.

margherita
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Martin Gansten
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
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Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Any planets aspecting the ascendant, Martin?

The Sun itself, by a wide trine.
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Raymond Scott



Joined: 08 Mar 2012
Posts: 20

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so hows does Astrology fit with various ethnic/racial groups including even multiethnic/racial types like myself?
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raymond Scott wrote:
so hows does Astrology fit with various ethnic/racial groups including even multiethnic/racial types like myself?

That question was brought up even by early writers of astrology -- not surprisingly, as horoscopic astrology originated in a multiethnic society. Their answer is basically that the horoscope shows variations within the racial/ethnic parameters. Tall and short, fair and dark, slim and fat, etc, are all relative terms (as are rich and poor, etc) which need to be measured against a given norm or standard expectation in order to mean anything.

I would say that a horoscope basically describes, in an abstract way, a given moment in time and space. In order to make it concrete, we need to know to whom or what it refers: to a particular question, to the launching of a ship or the foundation-laying of a city, or to the birth of a man or woman, prince or peasant -- and, for determining appearance, black or white, etc.
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Stockholm

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Deb wrote:
I would have thought the association with the luminaries lies behind this.

Absolutely. Solar and lunar types tend to have the most prominent eyes, the lunar being more moist and the solar more radiant. Venus often gives a beautiful shape; Mars smallish eyes with a sharp, piercing look; Saturn dull and deep-set eyes; etc.


I recently read a biography of Vivekananda. And made his chart.

"“Man of a big heart, broad shoulders, bright eyes…”,are the usual text book descriptions of Vivekananda"

Scroll down to see a pic of him here:
http://ideasareimmortal.doubteverything.org/2012/01/25/swami-vivekananda-the-monk-as-man/

He have a sidereal Sagittarius ascendent with Sun placed in his first house.
(vargottama as well).

Tropical chart:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Vivekananda,_Swami

His body constitution seems to have much kapha ? But sun is pitta by nature. Perhaps the ascendent ruler Jupiters status as a kapha planet is influencing here ?
If this birthtime is correct then Jupiter is placed in navamsha ascendent which could influence ayurvedic kapha like constitution.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know how accurate the chart for Vivekananda is, but you are of course right when you say:

Quote:
His body constitution seems to have much kapha ? But sun is pitta by nature.

Generally speaking (and this is not classical āyurveda, but based on observation: I learnt it from an astrologer-friend and have been able to confirm it many times), an original pitta constitution will gradually tend towards either pitta-kapha or pitta-vāta. The former natives, while retaining their natural pitta characteristics (such as force of character, leadership abilities, love of physical exercise, etc), also tend to put on weight -- often a great deal of it -- and to develop secondary characteristics which one would generally associate with Venus. All this is amplified or modified by the signs involved, just as you say:

Quote:
Perhaps the ascendent ruler Jupiters status as a kapha planet is influencing here ?

Definitely, and also the presence of Venus in the first house -- again, provided that the birth time is correct.
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