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triplicities
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Jerd (James) for setting out how ascensions are used. I have read some material by Joseph Crane and Demetra George on this but its good to have your insights.

I suppose I have three questions:

1 Does this technique become effectively impractical at higher latitudes?
2 Do you use triplicity rulers when there are no planets in a sign?
3 What sign do you use for career?


1 Does this technique become effectively impractical at higher latitudes?

From my latitude in Edinburgh at around 56°N we have the signs Aries and Pisces rising very fast. In particular they ascend in just 10°24 degrees! Assuming we have the 1oth WS house and/or MC or critical planets in these signs would you be realistically suggesting key career moments around the age of 10? I realise we also can add in the minor periods of the planets but this still seems a problem with the ascensional approach which the early hellenistic astrologers based in Alexandria would not have concerned themselves with. As someone who has utilised this technique for some time how do you respond to that objection?

http://www.projecthindsight.com/images/TablesPDFs/Tb2-AscensionTimes.pdf

2 Do you use triplicity rulers when there are no planets in a sign?

From my reading of Joseph Crane , Demetra George and indeed Valens I only see examples of planets located in signs rather than triplicity rulers. Does Valens suggest triplicity rulers if there are no planets? Could you please give me the reference from the Anthology for this as I would like to take a look. Thanks.

3 What sign do you use for career?

Taurus is a sign that just gives and gives for Madoff. It contains his 10th WS house, his MC, His sect light +ASC ruler (The Sun) , and the dispositor of all these (Venus). More generally, what sign are you principally using for career. Its interesting and more challenging when the MC, 10 WS house, Sect light and ASC ruler are all differently located!

Mark
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James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1- a - The first I heard about the ascensional times was from Chris Brennan's MySpace forum [now offline], then I listened to Robert Hand's 2008 Triplicities lecture from the Blast conference [still available on The Blast site]. I have never been confronted to higher latitude births within my clientele; should I have been, I would have mainly relied on the basic use of triplicity rulers as I explained in an earlier reply. However to answer the following remark: "Assuming we have the 1oth WS house and/or MC or critical planets in these signs would you be realistically suggesting key career moments around the age of 10?" Of course I wouldn't. But since I work with derived houses all the time, the 10th for example becomes the 7th of the father, the 8th of brothers and sisters, etc.

1 - b - "I realise we also can add in the minor periods of the planets but this still seems a problem with the ascensional approach which the early hellenistic astrologers based in Alexandria would not have concerned themselves with. As someone who has utilised this technique for some time how do you respond to that objection?"

Why is adding in the minor periods a problem with the ascensional approach? According to Robert Hand [The Blast lecture] and Joseph Crane [Astrological Roots: The Hellenistic Legacy pp.290-294], Valens did it. Unless of course I missed the gist of your objection.

2 - Again using Madoof's chart example, let's look at the [empty] third WSH house to see how the ascensional times technique works when there are no planets in a house: diurnal birth so the order of the triplicity rulers of air is Saturn, Mercury and Jupiter. First, what sign is Saturn in? Saturn is in Aries. What is the latitude of birth? 40° North. Using the Table of Ascensional Times we see that Aries shows 18° which corresponds to 18 years. So the first triplicity ruler of the third WSH will rule for the first 18 years of the native. The second triplicity ruler Mercury is also in Aries. So the second triplicity ruler of the third WSH will rule from 18+ to 36. And so on.

3 - "Its interesting and more challenging when the MC, 10 WS house, Sect light and ASC ruler are all differently located!" Of course it is. Madoff's chart just happened to be available. Careerwise I study the whole chart. Of course the 2nd, 6th and 10th WSH are not to be neglected.


james
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

Thanks for your reply. I have only recently encountered these methods so I apologise if my comments seemed a bit crude. I am just becoming aware of the rich variety of predictive techniques in hellenistic astrology such as zodiacal releasing, circumabulations, decennials, quarters, and ascensions.

Still you were linking the ascensional times of signs to likely critical years of activity in the sign were you not? I was simply picking up that point.

Quote:
I listened to Robert Hand's 2008 Triplicities lecture from the Blast conference [still available on The Blast site].


I cant seem to track this down. Oddly enough the 2007 copies of lectures on audio/video are easy to locate but I cant locate the actual link to purchase the 2008 lectures. A pity as it had a clearer hellenistic focus. If anyone can find the actual link I would really appreciate it!

Quote:
I have never been confronted to higher latitude births within my clientele


As they say location, location, location! Here in Scotland it goes with the territory. Smile

Quote:
Why is adding in the minor periods a problem with the ascensional approach?


Its not. I think you misunderstood me. I was simply making reference to the point that I realised the calculation of key years could include the minor period of planets too. However, my question exclusively related to the ascensional times of signs like Aries/Pisces in high latitudes. These put the critical years in the sign earlier and earlier as you go north in latitude.

Quote:
Again using Madoof's chart example, let's look at the [empty] third WSH house to see how the ascensional times technique works when there are no planets in a house: diurnal birth so the order of the triplicity rulers of air is Saturn, Mercury and Jupiter. First, what sign is Saturn in? Saturn is in Aries. What is the latitude of birth? 40° North. Using the Table of Ascensional Times we see that Aries shows 18° which corresponds to 18 years. So the first triplicity ruler of the third WSH will rule for the first 18 years of the native. The second triplicity ruler Mercury is also in Aries. So the second triplicity ruler of the third WSH will rule from 18+ to 36. And so on.


Thanks thats very illuminating. I have never found the tripartite division of a life by the triplicity rulers that convincing. I mean unless you know the length of life how can you possibly assign what a third of the life is? Using your approach though what happens for people who have already been through the whole triplicity cycle. Do you simply repeat it? What about just using the minor periods of the planets instead for triplicity ruler periods? Have you had any success with that?

Mark
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James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I remember correctly I had to email Moses Siregard III to get my copy of the Sept. 18, 2008 The Triplicities lecture. You will find Moses addy here: http://blastastrologyconference.com/bios.html#ms

We used Paypal, I do not know the other means of payment.

Back later for a reply on your last post; am enjoying tea at the moment!


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Mark
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerd wrote:
Quote:
If I remember correctly I had to email Moses Siregard III to get my copy of the Sept. 18, 2008 The Triplicities lecture. You will find Moses addy here: http://blastastrologyconference.com/bios.html#ms


Thanks James!

There were actually, several very interesting looking talks on hellenistic astrology at the 2008 Blast Conference. Lala Happy

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jerd/james

i have found this conversation educational..thanks for your ongoing comments. i went to a link at dykes site that offered a pdf of the ascensional times and note on page 2 of the pdf this comment " ascensional times are an ancient method of approximating primary direction, in which the number of degrees of right ascension ( RA) passing across the midheaven as a single sign crosses the horizon, is converted into years of life: 1% or RA = 1 year of life."

this reminds me of solar arc directions 1% = 1 year of life even if the difference is that RA can fluctuate depending on the sign and latitude, as opposed to a flat rate that is used in solar arc directions where the rate is applied a few ways, RA being the main way as i understand solar arc directions.. i was scratching my head reading the data you left on ascensional times on madoffs chart for taurus and etc and thinking how this reminded me of solar arc directions, before i read what dykes had to say on page 2 of his pdf on ascensional times..
>>
21 (Ascensional time of the sign Taurus)
28 (Ascensional time of the sign Gemini)
29 (Ascensional time of the sign Taurus + Venus' minor period)
43 (Ascensional time of the sign Gemini + Mars' minor period)
46 (Ascensional time of the sign Taurus + Moon's minor period)<<

i suppose this is getting off the track of how you are using the triplicities, but i find it interesting and especially the comment from the dykes pdf of this RA being an approximation of primary directions..

i would like to see an example worked out before hand in some predictive fashion.. perhaps this is asking too much for those using this technique to provide.. if it isn't, i would be especially curious to see how it is applied.. i am thinking you use this in some predictive manner, but perhaps i am mistaken to think this..
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
i went to a link at dykes site that offered a pdf of the ascensional times and note on page 2 of the pdf this comment " ascensional times are an ancient method of approximating primary direction, in which the number of degrees of right ascension ( RA) passing across the midheaven as a single sign crosses the horizon, is converted into years of life: 1% or RA = 1 year of life."


Hi James,

This old thread may help to clarify things somewhat.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30107&highlight=&sid=a9c5a26ec7c74e80a12f02a4a8b6b577

As Martin Gansten explains the ascensional rising of signs is a mathematically different technique from primary directions which according to Ptolemy's technique are calculated on the basis of proportional semi-arcs. Ascensions only focus on the oblique ascensions or rising times of signs alone (not culmination, setting, and anti-culmination). Primary directions incorporate both oblique ascensions and right ascension. The technique of relying on ascensions alone is criticised by Ptolemy in Tetrabiblos Book III. 10

Incidentally, here is a very useful article by Deborah Houlding on how to manually calculate primary directions:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/easy_directions.pdf

Mark
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James E.



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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
I have never found the tripartite division of a life by the triplicity rulers that convincing. I mean unless you know the length of life how can you possibly assign what a third of the life is?


My reference for this is Bonatti: Basic Astrology - Treatises 1-3 of The Book of Astronomy, translated by Dr. Benjamin Dykes, pages 68-69. I only work with the basic use of triplicity rulers [as I explained in a earlier post] to answer a "general or universal question" to briefly quote Bonatti.

Mark wrote:
Using your approach though what happens for people who have already been through the whole triplicity cycle. Do you simply repeat it?


I have rarely encountered clients "who have already been through the whole triplicity cycle" and when I did I had the same question as you, that is do we repeat the cycle? That question has not been answered yet by the different [astrological] authorities to whom I brought this subject up.

Mark wrote:
What about just using the minor periods of the planets instead for triplicity ruler periods? Have you had any success with that?


On some charts I haved worked only with the minor periods of the planets, not enough I'm afraid to come to any valid conclusion.


james
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again James,

Quote:
I have rarely encountered clients "who have already been through the whole triplicity cycle" and when I did I had the same question as you, that is do we repeat the cycle? That question has not been answered yet by the different [astrological] authorities to whom I brought this subject up.


I know I risk sounding like a broken record here but this issue is much more highlighted in charts with high latitudes. As I am sure you are aware the differences between the ascensional rising times of the signs gets more and more extreme as you travel north (or south in the southern hemisphere).

At my latitude in Edinburgh (55°57 N) the following signs ascend very quickly:

Aries 10°24
Pisces 10°24
Taurus 14°27
Aquarius 14°27

On the other hand the following signs ascend very slowly:

Virgo 45°25
Libra 45°25
Leo 45°22
Scorpio 45°22

So it might be quite conceivable for someone in Scotland (or in other northern latitudes) to go through not just one cycle of triplicity rulers in certain signs but several! A few degrees further north Aries/Pisces ascends even more quickly. In Oslo, Norway, (59°57 N) for example it takes just 07°19 degrees!

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
A few degrees further north Aries/Pisces ascends even more quickly. In Oslo, Norway, (59°57) for example it takes just 07°19 degrees!

And in Umeå, Sweden, where my wife was born, they each rise in about 14 minutes of clock time -- approximately 3°30'. Quadrant houses at these latitudes look seriously weird! Very Happy
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark,

thanks for the link to the thread from 2008. i learned something on the history of pds, but not what i thought.. the article from deb 2005 was also interesting.. i like what she said on page 6! "When you look at the next piece of text, please do not panic – any term that you need to understand will be explained" - i found that funny!

after reading martin ganstens 'primary directions - astrolgy's old masters technique" and sepharial's 'primary directions - a definitive study' while still waiting 2 months for the arrival of rumen kolev's 2 of 3 books on primary directions, i have read over the language enough times to think some of the information might be penetrating, lol... deb must have wrote that article long before the free morinus software program came out.. i use this program, but can't claim to understand primary directions well enough to explain any of it in the terms i read in the books.. some of us have a more dry mathematical inclination then others - but i do enjoy considering primary directions and how they play at in a particular chart, whether it be me looking beforehand, or after the fact..

the example in the link to debs article of gadbury for king henry's chart and death are used quite a bit to highlight primary directions it seems.. mars directed to the ascendant works out at a rate of about 1 degree per year in this example which one would get off the solar arc direction data as well, except it would be ascendant directed to mars, rather then mars being directed to the ascendant via pd's... this is one of the reasons my brain is trying to get a handle on the distinctions between primary directions and solar arc directions as i find some of the data looks strikingly similar.. you have to do the pd's in converse to see what you would see with solar arc directions going forward, or you could do the reverse - converse solar arc directions in king henrys chart would bring mars to the ascendant in the 40th year.. one wonders how exact the 3 degrees gemini ascendant is, but it is what it is for king henrys chart and obviously works here, so close enough.
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:

Quote:
after reading martin ganstens 'primary directions - astrolgy's old masters technique" and sepharial's 'primary directions - a definitive study' while still waiting 2 months for the arrival of rumen kolev's 2 of 3 books on primary directions, i have read over the language enough times to think some of the information might be penetrating, lol...


I find Martin's book the most intelligible and informative work on the subject I have ever read. I have Sepharials two books on the topic and all three of Rumen Kolev's booklets. Kolev would be my second choice although he is more modern in focus. Its a useful complement to Martin's book as it fills in details of modern advocates of PDs -especially in Germany. He also has some interesting chart examples. Kolev incorporates outer planets.

James_M wrote:
Quote:
deb must have wrote that article long before the free morinus software program came out..


It was only in 2009. I think her objective was more to give people a feel for what was actually going in in PDs by going through the basic steps of calculation. Its the same reason that motivates some astrology teachers to still get their students to calculate natal charts manually. We all have the software but do we have the understanding to go with it?

James_M wrote:
Quote:
i use this program, but can't claim to understand primary directions well enough to explain any of it in the terms i read in the books.. some of us have a more dry mathematical inclination then others - but i do enjoy considering primary directions and how they play at in a particular chart, whether it be me looking beforehand, or after the fact..


I have never had any success downloading Morinus so I envy you. Sad I dont think you are alone in finding the maths side rather off putting. Still I have always felt mastering PDs is a mark of a well rounded traditional astrologer.

However, this traditional astrologer thinks PDs are overemphasized in contemporary traditional astrology:

http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/astrological-predictive-techniques-primary-directions-1-ascensions-bounds/

James_M wrote:
Quote:
.. this is one of the reasons my brain is trying to get a handle on the distinctions between primary directions and solar arc directions as i find some of the data looks strikingly similar.. you have to do the pd's in converse to see what you would see with solar arc directions going forward, or you could do the reverse - converse solar arc directions in king henrys chart would bring mars to the ascendant in the 40th year.. one wonders how exact the 3 degrees gemini ascendant is, but it is what it is for king henrys chart and obviously works here, so close enough.


That is an interesting comment.

The Dutch astrologer Wim van Dam makes a similar comment in the article below but notes that the differences become more pronounced between PDs and solar arcs as you move to more northerly latitudes. (That old latitude issue again!). Apart from the radix chart solar arcs take no account of either geographical or planetary latitude as they are exclusively only calculated on the basis of longitude. In the case of in mundo PDs the latitude of planets is factored into the calculation. I am not so clear on the exact distinction for zodiacal PDs and solar arcs but presumably it is connected to the variation in the diurnal movement of each point calculated rather than being moved at a completely uniform rate in longitude in solar arcs.

Hopefully, Martin can give us a more definitive answer to your question.

http://www.astrosoftware.com/wimprimaries.htm

Quote:
The main speed for p.d.’s is about the same as the solar arcs. It varies from less than half a degree to more than two degrees and as said above, it is different for each point in the horoscope. However, just like Placidus and most other housing systems, it shows a tendency to produce equal houses as one gets closer to the equator. Therefore, primaries tend to coincide with solar arc directions in tropical areas. For European and North American latitudes however, differences can be considerable as we will see. The results will differ depending on the house system used.


Mark
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Hopefully, Martin can give us a more definitive answer to your question.

I'd be happy to, if someone could explain exactly what the question is. (Thanks for the kind words about the book, by the way.)

Wim van Dam's style of primary directions is based on semi-arcs, without latitude, converting arcs of direction to years of life based on the Sun's daily motion in longitude on consecutive days after the birth (a variation on Placidus' method). Possibly the latter is what makes them similar at times to solar arc directions.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark and martin,

i don't want to derail the focus on triplicities even if it has run it's course..

i am running into the same wall i noticed while discussing primary directions verses solar arc directions.. no one wants to offer tangible examples of the technique applied to specific charts too much, or any in a way that might draw more towards using the technique.. that is how i see it anyway..

martin,

i believe i recognize the difference between theoretical and real movement which seems to be part of the bugaboo over the use of solar arc directions verses primary directions. the fact is i am noticing how they cross over and give similar results more then anyone cares to talk about even if one is more theoretical in nature.. do converse in solar arc and the movement is replicated in a similar manner to the directions in the pd's.. i don't really have a question.. i am making observations having come from using solar arc directions and wanting to use, know and understand primary directions better.. here is a question for you - do you know any astrologer that is making predictions using primary directions in real time in advance of the supposed events that connect to the primary directions? i can't seem to find anyone doing much of this, but maybe it happens a lot in private dynamics going on between astrologer and client.. does anyone know? you'd think it would be seen a bit in mundane astrology, but again astrology looks kinda dead with a lot of people talking theory mostly..
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M
Quote:
you'd think it would be seen a bit in mundane astrology, but again astrology looks kinda dead with a lot of people talking theory mostly..


That is a quite a sweeping and oversimplified statement.

I agree primaries have languished as an astrological technique for well over a century in the English speaking world. They seem to have been retained and utilised more frequently in German speaking astrology. So this is still a slow process as more people become familiar with the techniques and start to apply them again.

I think Martin's book represents an important step in that direction for traditionalists especially and he is now offering a course exclusively devoted to this.

http://www.martingansten.com/pddc.php

I hope its not too indiscrete of me to mention that I recall Benjamin Dykes telling me last year he was thinking of doing this course himself! I dont think you can ask for a better recommendation than that.

The revival of awareness in the natal work of renaissance astrologers such as Morin has also helped raise more interest in PDs. In fact our very own moderator Tom Callanan has contributed lots of insights into charts here over the years using primaries.

In modern astrology figures such as Bob Makransky, Isaac Starkman and Rumen Kolev have also helped to spread awareness of primary directions.

http://www.dearbrutus.com/primarydirections_1.pdf

With this increasing awareness has come dedicated PD software for primary directions such as Morinus, Placidus (Rumen Kolev) and Polaris (Isaac Starkman) that had helped astrologers utilise various approaches to primaries.

In regards mundane astrology you are right that not many people are utilising them at present but some certainly are. I think the situation will gradually move towards their more widespread use. The late Swiss-German astrologer Alexander Marr used them in rectifying most of his mundane charts. Equally, the Israeli astrologer Isaac Starkman makes extensive use of them. In terms of applying PDs within a traditional context Dr H (Regulus Astrology) has strongly advocated the use of primary directions in his books on mundane astrology.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/America-Born-Introducing-National-Horoscope/dp/0980185629

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rectification-Manual-American-Presidency/dp/0980185602

Dr H has for example been using some of the older Persian techniques in his rectified version of the US national chart such a directing the ascendant of a chart through the bounds. I personally think mundane astrology is ideal for primaries since we often have exact times for things like national charts. Along with techniques like solar returns, profections, eclipse charts and of course transits primaries offer a very useful addition to the mundane astrologers toolbox of predictive techniques.

As for your critcism that not much prediction is occuring that could be applied to much of natal astrology too. Equally, why just pick out primaries? In regards mundane I concur there is way too much hindsight astrology going on. We do need more astrologers bold enough to risk getting it wrong. Someone with the courage of their convictions (+predictions) such as Dennis Elwell:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/shipelwell.html

It would be interesting to check your statement out again in 10 years!

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:41 pm; edited 6 times in total
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