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Will my daughter Amelia get the job, yes or no?
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taurus



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 43

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton
Thanks for taking the time to go back over my post. The date is for the question is the 6th Feb 2012. I asked the question at 10:12 AM, Asc=10-44 Taurus, coordinates are for Derby, 001W29'00" 52N55'00".

The main reason for my original post was that I asked the question and used the turned chart which may I say on this site in the horary section it mentions turning the chart when asking a question about another person such as one's children. In reading the chart I saw the applying aspect which would show the job going to her but wasn't entirely sure of why if she has the experience and the qualifications...her ruler the Sun is in detriment. Detriment from what I have read can show a dislike.........or in questions like this can show that the person does not have the necessary qualifications, however, she does. Basically the occasion to act was powerful but the power to act wasn't. Just needed a different slant/interpretation on it. Maybe the interviewer just didn't like her for reasons we don't know.

Thank you Clinton.
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taurus,

First I've got to say it trully helps on any Forum to make your post as simple to understand as possible, making it easy for the Forum's consultantcy to understand and read the horoscope. Smile

I noticed you still forgot to incude the Nation, state, or Providence, etc., yet you included the co-ordinates, which I and others understood.

Before I put in my two shillings worth, I have to tell a symbolic joke that may help all of us understand how many of various signs operate. As you know Aries, Taurus, and Capricorn, all have something in common on their heads, Horns. Like two water Buffalo were down in Africa doing the mating combat scene by pushing each other around, locking heads. Two Bull Elk in the breeding season were dueling it out with horns blazing while a herd of cow elk watched and said "Look at those butt-heads go!" Two Bighorn sheep were raming their heads together while a Bighorn Ram on the sidelines asked the heard of ewes "Babes am I a butt-head?" A domestic Goat was banging his head on the rancher's knee, the rancher kicked him and said "Hey, you butt-head stop that right now!"

The morale of the story is if you find Ar, Tau, or Cap as Suns, Moons, or Ascendants you know what you are dealing with. Same if they have one of the three on the third house. And those signs deal that way on various house cusps. In other words the horned animals need to start paying attention and listening! Thumbs up Laughing Laughing

Time: 10:12 a.m.

Date: 2 / 6 / 2012

Derby, England

As of yet either my computer forbids me to post the horoscope as so many do so well upon this Forum, or I am too computer illiterate to post it properly. So if you click with your mouse on the web address the horoscope will appear:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?;lang=e;gm=a1;nho2=;btyp=2;mth=gr;sday=18;smon=2;syr=2012;hsy=5;zod=;orbp=;rs=2;add=18;node=-Yn;pfday=-YP%201;fix=1;ast=&nhor=1&cid=rzlfileqNIZqx-u1329598008

Taurus as you can see using the turned house method, the 5th, Virgo is your child. Virgo's lord Mercury is in the 10H and conjunct the Sun, to be more exact Mercury is combust; in other words your child is Not in a good way on this horary about a job already. Or rather your child is over-done, over cooked, somewhat burnt out on this matter! crying

Then if we turn the map so that the 5th house virgo cusp becomes the asc., the horary's 3rd becomes the derived house of the 10H, the 10th ruling one's occupation, ruled by Cancer, with a Moon separated from a trine to Venus(what happened fairly recently in the child's employment, status or reputation in the community, etc.) with an applying square to Saturn in a little over one degree. And there Taurus is the verdict, No, as Saturn is that dry barren planet, and the square has properly answered the question.

Clinton Garrett Soule
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 509

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton Soule wrote:
Time: 10:12 a.m.

Date: 2 / 6 / 2012

Derby, England


Hello Clinton

Sorry to say this, but I'm afraid that you are confusing matters here.

What you've done here is put the date into the USA format -- do we really need to point out that the USA format is not shared by all the other 200-ish countries of the globe? Nor is it the formally-agreed international standard. Your altering of Taurus's way of giving the data has introduced confusion, not clarity.

It was obvious from the longitude and latitude that of all Derbys in the list that come up in software (and on astro.com too, which I've just checked), this particular Derby couldn't be in Australia because the latitude stated in the very first post was northern, and it couldn't be in the USA because the longitude was about 3,000 miles away from the east coast of the USA. There aren't that many Derbys to choose from and the majority of them are in the USA. The Derby that is in the UK ('England' isn't really the best wider location to give, since England isn't a sovereign state -- although it's true that software programs vary in how they organise their listings despite their being international agreement on these things and legal norms for official names of sovereign states) is the minority in my software and on astro.com and there weren't any contenders from other Derbys, and the UK one is the only one that logic dictates was even remotely likely to fit the long. and lat. given in the original post at the head of the thread.

You're right about the am/pm being missing, or if it was in the 24hr clock then '1012hrs' would've been a clearer form, however I personally didn't think it was enough of an issue to bring up in such an insistent way since the Asc was given.

As for not giving the State/Province (not 'providence') and Nation-State, if I had a pound for every time a USA-based person assumed that the whole world knows what those two-letter abbreviations mean, and/or omitted the name of the country itself (i.e. 'USA') we all would be very rich indeed.

I agree with you that it's useful to have as much clarity as possible, however where someone gives the long. and lat. and the rising degree, I think belabouring the point is going over the top quite a bit -- I just think it's unnecessary and is starting to be a bit rude from my point of view.

Taurus has made it very clear what s/he would like the discussion to revolve around, and I don't find it an unreasonable or unclear request. I do find your insistence on treating Taurus as the cause of the problem and in need of correction to be uncomfortable to read, and unwarranted.

Again, sorry to say it but this thread has been uncomfortable for me for a little while but your introduction of unclarity over the date resulted in me wanting to speak up now.

Regards

handn
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taurus



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 43

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton Soule

Thank you indeed for taking the time to post a reply to me and putting your two shillings worth in. I doubt you are old enough to remember the shilling, a good old anglo saxon term. Anyway, I am a little confused however, not with your final judgment but with your weakness in identifying the correct house number. In the chart before me and using the placidus house system I have the sign LEO on the 5th cusp which rules, amongst other things, children. The link that you provide to the astrodienst site showing the chart- shows that LEO is still on the cusp of the 5th house using the regiomontanus house system. In my 38 years of interest in astrology I have always thought that the Sun is the ruler of LEO and not Mercury. Also, I'm sure that the chart(s) show the 2nd cusp Gemini to be the derived house of the 10th and therefore Mercury is the ruler. So we have the Sun ruling the child and Mercury ruling the job.

Thanks again
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taurus said:

Quote:
Anyway, I am a little confused however, not with your final judgment but with your weakness in identifying the correct house number. In the chart before me and using the placidus house system I have the sign LEO on the 5th cusp which rules, amongst other things, children. The link that you provide to the astrodienst site showing the chart- shows that LEO is still on the cusp of the 5th house using the regiomontanus house system. In my 38 years of interest in astrology I have always thought that the Sun is the ruler of LEO and not Mercury.


Taurus you are entirely correct, as Lilly pointed out as horary artists we should be impeccable in our horary analysis and Not be making incorrect judgments for the sake of the art and science and our own credibility. The 5th house for children is the house of Leo and Not Virgo as I had originally thought I had seen. Whoops, over sight ! And the 10th of the 5th would be Gemini and Not cancer.

Shame! Thumbs down crying Tongue Out I need to be punished!

According to Anthony Louis, who is presently leaning more towards Traditional horary, Lilly did in fact miss a horary on 'missing cattle' where he thought from analysis they were stolen where latter the cattle appeared in the owner's yard shortly thereafter. Also according to Louis, Lilly wanted to buy a certain property but he was too involved and 'fudged the data' and had many heartaches about the property thereafter. Yet we know unlike most Lilly was the Horary Icon West of Constaninople, but he made a few errors!

Now our precious Olivia, via this Forum, has pointed out a few horary artists prior to 1800 used Placidus, yet Lilly because of documented reasoning did not support Placidus, but Regio, and it is generally the choice in houses by most Traditionalists then and those Contemporary Traditionalist born after 1800.

In this horary, that can be seen by clicking with your mouse upon web address below, of which anyone can copy a chart where others can bring it up and minimize the horoscope for quick reference:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?;lang=e;gm=a1;nho2=;btyp=2;mth=gr;sday=18;smon=2;syr=2012;hsy=5;zod=;orbp=;rs=2;add=18;node=-Yn;pfday=-YP%201;fix=1;ast=&nhor=1&cid=rzlfileqNIZqx-u1329598008

Normally, about 85% of the time, the first positive aspect to the lord of the matter is the verdict. But in this case, with Mercury Combust, and moving faster that Sol, Mercury, lord of the derived 10th, is Not in a good way as she is Burnt up, over-done, bar-b-qued beyond digestion. Note the speeds of the planets in the following:

http://www.astro.com/tmpd/crzlfileqNIZqx-u1329598008/astro_2gr_01_willmydaughtergetthejob_hr.78717.63793.pdf

Taurus, as you know that Luna squ Saturn is Not that great for the querant either; but the contradiction of the combust lord of the derived 10th, Gemini has the verdict in the Combus Lord, Mercury!

Clinton Garrett Soule
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taurus



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 43

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whoops

Last edited by taurus on Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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taurus



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton Soule

My initial judgment of the chart (a yes) was based entirely on the application of Mercury(job) to the Sun(child), and the Moon to Saturn, yes a square but both essentially strong. How could she not be liked? (Frawley)(Sun in detriment), she has all the experience and qualifications and a 1 in 2.5 chance. What is the relevance of the combustion of Mercury?. How can the job be burnt, what does it mean in the reality of the situation. Sometimes it's hard to trust the astrology when one is bias.

Thanks again Clinton
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taurus,

You might get a better Idea of what the effects of the 'combust lord' are on thease web sites:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&gbv=2&gs_sm=12&gs_upl=5453l15610l0l17781l18l16l0l0l0l3l421l3125l0.2.5.3.1l11l0&q=cache:1GRC6Z-YOOQJ:http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/aspects.html+%27Lilly+lord+of+matter+combust+significator+combustion%27&ct=clnk

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/aspects.html

Lilly says in CA:

[/quote]Considerations for Better Judgement

23. Beware in all Judgments, when the Significator of the question is either Combust, or in Opposition to the Sun, he will then signify nothing of the matter, no good, nor is be able to bring anything to perfection. [quote]

Taurus, typically a cjt. is a YES, but a Combust according to Lilly is Not a yes but as in the preceding quote.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&gbv=2&q=cache:fjfqc-YOcRAJ:http://www.worldastrology.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/lilly-digested-volume-1-by-jane-griscti.pdf+%27Lilly++considerations+before+judgment+lord+of+matter+combust+significator+combustion%27&ct=clnk

The Moon Squ Saturn in this horary represents the difficulty and problems, rather crisis type of stress that the querant, Taurus is having with this horary.

Clinton Garrett Soule
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Seiko



Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 363
Location: Latvia

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Sun is either the Querent or the Quesited, the combustion is not harmful even without reception. So in the turned chart, the answer is YES. But since the correct option is not to turn the chart, the answer is NO.

But by all means do what you want and stick to your own theories.
Because when Lilly wrote "If the question be put regarding another person, you must in this case give the ascendant for the quesited", he was just kidding apparently. Not.
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taurus



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton Soule and Seiko

Thank you for your information.

Regards
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seiko said:

Quote:
If the Sun is either the Querent or the Quesited, the combustion is not harmful even without reception. So in the turned chart, the answer is YES. But since the correct option is not to turn the chart, the answer is NO.


Thanks Seiko, I've always loved what your Mars does for the discussions; keep up the fine work! Cool Thumbs up

As Sol is the child of the querant, the 5th, and as you say it's Not harmful!

Quote:
But by all means do what you want and stick to your own theories.
Because when Lilly wrote "If the question be put regarding another person, you must in this case give the ascendant for the quesited", he was just kidding apparently. Not.


I.E. Precious, adept, and insightful Seiko, I knew this leader of a 9th house religious group who had totally memorized the documents of his faith. Did he understand everything about his 9th house religion?

No, he did Not for he over-looked the teachings on astrology and other things, but he had memorized the data of his 9th house faith's documents despite some of his misunderstandings.

I.E. #2 A Brother of mine went to Turkey where he questioned a few Islamic religious (9th house) leaders about the contradictions of culture and practices of that religion in that country where the many of the Preists said '...many here do not totally understand Islam and the books that the faith comes from...that is why there is so much confusion in Turkish practices of the Moslem faith...'

Seiko, could you cite where this is found in CA, the pages, where many of us can absorb this perplexing method in context of course?

As Astrology is under the 9th house, and Traditionalism is 'sacred', yet I like many here I'm sure, have not memorized all the texts of the Ancients or the writters prior to 1800, yet I want to know, and I'm sure many on this Forum and beyond it's boundarys are interested in what Lilly teaches on this issue.

My own hypothesis is the 7th lord Rx is giving the consultancy pains on this horary as it should.

For us to be in error is like our beloved Lilly misunderstanding Claudius Ptolemy's Table of Essential Dignitys; which most Contemporary Traditionalists have agreed Lilly misunderstood! crying Confused

Clinton Garrett Soule
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Seiko



Joined: 05 Jun 2008
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton Soule wrote:

Seiko, could you cite where this is found in CA, the pages, where many of us can absorb this perplexing method in context of course?


OF PROFIT BY, OR PROFICIENCY IN, ANY SCIENCE &C.

The ascendant, its lord, and the Moon, are for the querent; and the 9th, its lord, or planet therein (if more than one, the nearest to the cusp), for the science.
See whether the lord of the 9th be fortunate or not, oriental, angular, &c. ; and whether he behold the lord of the ascendant with [sxt] or [tri]. If he be a fortune, and aspect the lord of the ascendant, the man has scientific knowledge, and will gain thereby; the more so if there be reception. If the aspect be [squ] or [opp], the man has talent, but shall do no good by it. If an infortune aspect either the lord of the ascendant or 9th, the man has wearied himself, but to no purpose, for he will never attain the knowledge he desires. If infortunes be in the 9th, or its lord afflicted, the party has but little scientific knowledge.
The Moon must also be observed with the lord of the 9th; for if they both apply to fortunes, the man is scientific ; if to infortunes, the contrary.
If the question be put regarding another person, you must in this case give the ascendant for the quesited.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seiko,

I cannot find your above given quotation in CA; can you help me by giving the page and/or Chapter, please?
Are you paraphrasing Lilly, CA p. 429, 430?
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Seiko



Joined: 05 Jun 2008
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
Seiko,

I cannot find your above given quotation in CA; can you help me by giving the page and/or Chapter, please?
Are you paraphrasing Lilly, CA p. 429, 430?


It's not from CA. It's Lilly, though. No paraphrasing, I couldn't do it if I wanted to, I don't speak Ye Old English. Smile

In CA Lilly writes:
"You must give the ascendant to him of whom it is asked, and the 9th house to the Science; [...]"

It says page 430 but since I have a PDF file I cannot guarantee it's the same in the book. The subtitle is "Of Science, Cunning or Wisdome in a man, whether it be true or not."

It's the same thing -- the ASC goes to the quesited.
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Carol



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
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Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seiko wrote:
johannes susato wrote:
Seiko,

I cannot find your above given quotation in CA; can you help me by giving the page and/or Chapter, please?
Are you paraphrasing Lilly, CA p. 429, 430?


It's not from CA. It's Lilly, though. No paraphrasing, I couldn't do it if I wanted to, I don't speak Ye Old English. Smile

In CA Lilly writes:
"You must give the ascendant to him of whom it is asked, and the 9th house to the Science; [...]"

It says page 430 but since I have a PDF file I cannot guarantee it's the same in the book. The subtitle is "Of Science, Cunning or Wisdome in a man, whether it be true or not."

It's the same thing -- the ASC goes to the quesited.


Seiko also wrote:
Quote:
Unless you are involved, do not turn the chart.

From CAII:

"If a Question be demanded of one absent in a generall way, and the Querent hath no relation to the party; then the 1st house, the Lord of that house and the Moon shall signify the absent party; [...]"


I've been doing some research, trying to get to the bottom of this matter too, and in case anyone happens to be interested, here's what I've found so far: Lilly doesn't always practice what he preaches, and he isn't necessarily consistent with what he preaches.

For instance, on p. 452 of CA II, the question/chart is "Will Prince Rupert benefit from our war, and will he defeat the Earl of Essex?" (paraphrased), Dec. 8, 1642, 9.23 a.m., London, UK (data slightly different from original chart in order to correlate with the original chart). One would assume that Prince Rupert would be given the Asc. since he is the one asked about in a general way and isn't related to the querent, but Lilly assigns the key players in the following way:

1) Prince Rupert is given the 10th house/Mars because "he is a noble man or person of eminence".
2) The Earl of Essex is given the 4th house/Venus because it is the "opposite house to the Prince's".
3) The querent is assigned to the Asc. and its ruler because "he was sympathetic to Parliament [same as Earl of Essex, BTW] and involved himself and his fortune among us".
4) Moon is the 7th ruler.

And Lilly prefaces all the above by saying (paraphrased) : "This question is not explained in the rule books, nor should the astrologer expect particular rules to interpret every question."

And if this weren't confusing enough, he then goes on to p. 473 in CA II and the question/chart, "The time of his excellency, Robert, Earl of Essex, last setting forth into the West", May 24, 1644, 12:29 a.m., London, UK, and here he assigns the Earl of Essex (the very same guy as #2 above) to the 1st house: "Here Aquarius is the ascending sign, well representing Essex's physical appearance, for he was attractive...." Go figure!

So bottom line as far as I can tell is Lilly is so inconsistent and enigmatic on this particular issue that we should take with a grain--or ton-- of salt whatever he says at any given time and not expect to find any hard and fast rules.
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