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Therese, when you use the Sidereal zodiac, do you just use all of the traditional concepts like bounds, trigon lords of the sect light, Zodiacal Releasing etc. but only in a different zodiac than what most others use or do you adapt these concepts at all?

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Martin wrote:
I haven't done so either, but I would not consider it a very useful test of zodiacs. From a siderealist perspective, one chart would be cast for the Aries (etc) ingress, the other for the vernal equinox (etc); and the latter may well be considered an important point in time for mundane astrological purposes without making it define the zodiac. In other words, your test would perhaps show whether the tropical or sidereal year is most useful in mundane astrology, but the zodiacs would have to be tried in some other way.
I agree. There are many ways to test the zodiacs other than ingress charts. As I said above, I don't have faith in sidereal cardinal ingress charts over the equinox and solstice charts. These are important points in the solar cycle. India actually uses these four cyclic charts plus two others.

There are diverse views in the sidereal community. Those who follow the Fagan school are now mainly few, far between, and (May I say it?) aging. Jyotish principles have more or less taken over the sidereal community, and there it gets very interesting because of the similarity between Jyotish and Hellenistic/Arabic principles.

I am not going to preview this post for errors because my computer keeps giving me internal server errors.

Therese
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

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Margherita wrote:
In every case Fern case is strange to me too, too much Mars.


Which is why I began with her chart as an illustration of planets in the sidereal signs. Mars disappears in favor of Saturn and an afflicted Venus (Venus in fall in Virgo)

I'm puzzled, actually, why no one has commented on her sidereal chart. Maybe it will help if I find a way to post the chart here. It's difficult to visualize a chart without seeing it.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

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Konrad wrote:Therese, when you use the Sidereal zodiac, do you just use all of the traditional concepts like bounds, trigon lords of the sect light, Zodiacal Releasing etc. but only in a different zodiac than what most others use or do you adapt these concepts at all?
I use these exactly as they are used by tropical astrologers, and they seem to work well. No adaptation or change. The reason I began this thread was to deomonstrate how these concepts work sidereally since I've been experimenting with the traditional techniques.

I was encouraged to post here due to the recent discovery of tablets containing the terms in Mesopoatamia, and also the work of Alexander Jones. But the discussion has gone off on tangents rather than staying central to the topic at hand. This apparently happened because I posted the long introduction about sidereal signs and qualities.

Thank your for your question, Konrad. Much appreciated! I'd love to get back on topic.

I tried to go to the link that gave directions on how to post a chart, but the link stalled out. I would appreciate instructions if anyone can help. Right now (10 am California time) there seems to be server trouble. I'll wait until evening when European traffic is less.

Therese
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

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I can post it for you if you want? Though I would need to know which zodiac to use. I have Solar Fire.

Why not use Horary as a simple, clear-cut test of whether the sidereal zodiac works as well as the tropical?

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Konrad wrote:Why not use Horary as a simple, clear-cut test of whether the sidereal zodiac works as well as the tropical?
I do horary as well as natal work using only the (or, rather, a) sidereal zodiac, and it certainly works for me. (Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Indian astrologers would of course say the same.) But I am wary of the idea of simple, clear-cut tests. I have certainly seen charts that baffle me (horary and natal), and so have all astrologers with any experience, whether tropical or sidereal. It is my honest opinion that, overall, sidereal charts work better; but in the end, there are only seven classical planets from which to choose your significators, and not infrequently, a given configuration will prove decisive in a judgement irrespective of which zodiac is used. Not always, of course -- just often enough to cast doubt on the 'simple, clear-cut' idea. Not to mention the consideration that there are many different views on which rules to use in judging a chart. Mark mentioned this in relation to ingress charts, but it applies equally to horary and natal.

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I understand that Martin, but surely we could find a few charts from our collective database which would have a straight trine with reception showing someone getting a job, for instance which would also have a different ascending sign depending on which zodiac you use?

I mean also the details should be different, right? Someone over-qualified for the job they are going for and their significator is exalted in one zodiac in detriment in the other or the time-frames involved differing with the nature of the signs. Things like this could be compared surely?

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Yes. I don't object to comparisons, although I predict that people will draw different conclusions from them. ;)

One chart I like to cite in this context is actually a natal one: that of Robert Zoller. He refers to it himself often enough, so I suppose we can treat it as public.

Tropically, the Moon on the Asc is ruler of the 5th, a fruitful sign, in another fruitful sign ruled by Jupiter, and with no malefic aspects. At a first glance, I would expect the native to have several children (predominantly daughters) who play a central role in his life.

Sidereally, the Moon is ruler of the 6th in a Saturn sign, and (depending on the house system used, of course) Saturn as ruler of the Asc is near the 6th house cusp afflicted by the opposition of Mars. I would expect this to be someone of a sickly constitution, whose life was characterized to a great extent by illness.

No doubt some will find this example as compelling as I do, while others will find different ways of explaining both the childlessness and the illness.

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Martin Gansten wrote:No doubt some will find this example as compelling as I do, while others will find different ways of explaining both the childlessness and the illness.
Yes, and this is the single, most irritating thing about astrology. There are multiple ways of doing every thing with many of them reaching the same destinations via different routes.

I accept your reservations but I think I may just give it a shot with my own charts anyway.

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Hello all,

Indeed, coming from differing premises, as different astrologies (and astrologers ;)) often do, there will be different paths to making sense of a native's life. I'll take a swing at it, even if looking at charts at first glance has never turned out too well for me. :D

As for Zoller's chart, looking at only the Moon, it is not in any of its signs nor in the sign of a sect-mate. We can say the same of Jupiter.

For his health, his Lot of Fortune falls in the 2nd sign Aries, where both its domicile and exalted lords are in the 12th sign opposed by Saturn.

For children (and IIRC he has a step-son?), the only planet in the 4th, 5th, 10th, & 11th signs is Venus, and all the signs except for Cancer are barren ones according to Valens, if memory serves. Also, two differing Lots of Children for men both fall into Taurus, another barren sign.
As for Venus, again it looks like it's in an alien sign. Both Venus & the Moon have Jupiter as their domicile lord, Jupiter has Mars, so I think the benefics and the Moon here are limited it what they can both provide and do by being ultimately reliant on poorly placed malefics.
Last edited by GR on Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gabe

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Konrad wrote:I can post it for you if you want? Though I would need to know which zodiac to use. I have Solar Fire.

Why not use Horary as a simple, clear-cut test of whether the sidereal zodiac works as well as the tropical?
That would be very helpful, Konrad if you could post the chart. Calculate the chart with the Lahiri ayanamsa and equal houses. This will make the cusps of all the houses the same degree, though I use that cusp as the center of a house rather than the beginning. (I use the Krishnamurti ayanamsa but at this point it would only cause confusion. Almost everyone uses Lahiri now, though Ronnie Dryer uses Krishnamurti.) Fern's approximate data is below.

Fern:
October 27, 1985
12:13 p.m. EST
New Haven, CT (only a guess)
Asc. about 25 Sagittarius

Moon in the last degree of Pises (terms of Saturn)
Venus is near the zenith point in Virgo and square the ascendant.

I'm not a practicing horary astrologer, but I've often thought it would be interesting to have a tropical and sidereal horary astrlologer in the same room, and have them draw up charts for a question and compare the results.

Therese
Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

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Martin wrote:
It is my honest opinion that, overall, sidereal charts work better; but in the end, there are only seven classical planets from which to choose your significators, and not infrequently, a given configuration will prove decisive in a judgement irrespective of which zodiac is used. Not always, of course -- just often enough to cast doubt on the 'simple, clear-cut' idea
Exactly my experience as well. And we have the difficulty caused by the overlap of zodiacs due to the current locaton of the precessed degree...the final degrees of the tropical signs and the early degrees of sidereal signs. This area will have the same sign name in both zodiacs. Well, then there are always the arguments over the ayanamsa, the very best reason to stay with the tropical zodiac
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm