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Lilly's Considerations
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Simultaneous Detriment and Debility
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 90

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
Saturn disposits every planet in the chart (and receives most of them) from the fortunate 5th house, in his domicile and while he is cazimi.


Without wanting to turn this into yet another combustion-discussion, but would you then say, that having a very strong dispositor 'saves' a planet from the debilitating effects of said combustion?
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He controlled (managed) other's wealth


Wouldn't that be more 8th house?
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 565

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
He controlled (managed) other's wealth


Wouldn't that be more 8th house?


No. Saturn is the thing signifying the controlling of other's wealth, not the house position.

Yukionna wrote:
Konrad wrote:
Saturn disposits every planet in the chart (and receives most of them) from the fortunate 5th house, in his domicile and while he is cazimi.


Without wanting to turn this into yet another combustion-discussion, but would you then say, that having a very strong dispositor 'saves' a planet from the debilitating effects of said combustion?


It is difficult for me to really say anything definite abut this since there are usually many factors involved when delineating a topic but my sense is that if the combust planet is received by a fortunate lord, then that will 'save' it from complete destruction but it is still very much afflicted. I have not gotten around to really studying in-depth combustion's effects though, so I wouldn't put too much stock in that right now.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No. Saturn is the thing signifying the controlling of other's wealth, not the house position.


Saturn is in Capricorn (domicile). It therefore operates independently (i.e. without outside interference by disposition), how does this connect to the wealth of others? Individual's wealth is second house, others' wealth is 8th house, wealth in general is Jupiter. Saturn is control, I agree, but I don't see it controlling wealth in this chart. It rules Mars and Venus, rulers of houses 2 & 8, both of which are in the 6th, thereby connecting Saturn to 6th house issues or he influences them, but then to extend that directly to the houses ruled by Venus and Mars by saying it is Saturn (not Venus and Mars?) that directly controls the wealth of others, seems a bit of a stretch. I can see influence (his independence from direct ownership of the wealth?), but not direct control.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason is Saturn fortunate shows:

"...It (Saturn) puts into one’s hands great ranks and distinguished
positions, supervisions, management of others’ property, and the fathership of others’ children." (Valens Anthology, Bk 1, Riley trans.)

Also:

"If Saturn is in this Place (the 5th while having influence over the Asc or Fortune), men will be masters of estates, flocks, and herds; they will establish towns and villages." (Valens Anthology Bk 2, Riley trans.)

Here Saturn is of special significance since it is dispositor of Mercury who rules the Asc, Fortune and Spirit. He also disposits and receives both lights and he is the lord of the Lot of Exaltation. His position in the 5th shows his ability to act for the native. I'm not saying that he doesn't affect any other houses or their topics but in the context of the native himself, he has a pretty big say in what the native does, how he does it and his success in doing it.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't read those quotes the same way you do.

Quote:
"...It (Saturn) puts into one’s hands great ranks and distinguished positions, supervisions, management of others’ property, and the fathership of others’ children." (Valens Anthology, Bk 1, Riley trans.)


This not an absolute otherwise it would apply no matter where Saturn is in the chart. For example Saturn in Capricorn in the 12th, 3rd etc It seems to me that Valens is giving a list of things that it could signify under the right circumstances, i.e. depending on the rest of the chart. I admit I am no expert on Valens.

Quote:
"If Saturn is in this Place (the 5th while having influence over the Asc or Fortune), men will be masters of estates, flocks, and herds; they will establish towns and villages." (Valens Anthology Bk 2, Riley trans.)


""Masters of estates, flocks and herds, means "father's estate" (2nd of the 4th), not wealth of others. Establishing towns and villages, is also 2nd of the 4th (towns and villages). I don't see it the same way that you do.

I love this chart and I'm really happy you posted it. This is the strongest Saturn I've ever seen in terms of influence, but skipping over the dispositor and giving the influence to Saturn is more than I'm willing to do.
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to jump here because Escriba is a fantastic chart, and one should absolutely say something about this.

Mercury's position free or combusted makes the attitude to life. In particular according Argoli (I believe from Ptolomeus Parvus)- under the beams, it makes the ones the very prudent, inclined to business, because the Sun gives the power to deal. Since it is occidental, it makes the native inclined to secrets (still Argoli).

Then in general Mercury with Saturn, and especially in Capricorn- Saturn sign, gives a brilliant intelligence.

Centiloquium n.38 "When Mercury shall be well fortified or placed in either of the houses of Saturn in any one's nativity, the native hath a divining soul, and is capable of prying far into matters; if he be placed in the house of Mars, especially in Aries, he inclines to eloquence. " (Capricorn is the house of Saturn, and Mars too).

And about the canonization Antiochus: "The New or Full Moon makes the inspired by Gods". (Anyway I'm not a supporter of these kind of saints, just I report the fact.)

Then it's true that Moon and Jupiter are in their debilities, but especially for Jupiter - Moon is a Light, works in another way- it does not subtract, but gives in the wrong way. Let's say that knowing a little Escrivá, I have an idea where is the too much...

It's a very interesting chart,
margherita
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
This not an absolute otherwise it would apply no matter where Saturn is in the chart. For example Saturn in Capricorn in the 12th, 3rd etc It seems to me that Valens is giving a list of things that it could signify under the right circumstances, i.e. depending on the rest of the chart. I admit I am no expert on Valens.


Of course its not an absolute, I read it (and in other charts too) that when Saturn is fortunate and ruling over important points (Asc, Fortune, Spirit etc.) then these things will be true.

Quote:
"Masters of estates, flocks and herds, means "father's estate" (2nd of the 4th), not wealth of others. Establishing towns and villages, is also 2nd of the 4th (towns and villages). I don't see it the same way that you do.


You don't because I don't see any real value in turning the chart. I don't think this is to be taken so literally i.e that the native will look after estates but only to show the general theme of what Saturn will provide in these places.

Quote:
I love this chart and I'm really happy you posted it. This is the strongest Saturn I've ever seen in terms of influence, but skipping over the dispositor and giving the influence to Saturn is more than I'm willing to do.


Yes, I am rather partial to it too and it is the strongest and most influential I have seen Saturn. I guess my main point is that I'm not giving Saturn any influence that he does not earn by being pivotal in the most important points in a nativity. I'm happy to agree to disagree with you though.
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 295

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
[color=darkblue]To the best of my knowledge Powell was not a Mormon, although I'm not sure what that would have to do with anything.



I'm not sure either, but if he was then his conditoning may have meant he found it even harder to tolerate the shame and humiliation of losing his kids.

You bring in this child porn/grandfather dynamic now which does not help in any 'society'. A Mormon community where family values, chastity and so forth are part of the deal/fabric may take an even dimmer view of this transgression.

I was thinking mainly of Mormonism in relation to this heavy Capricorn arrangement - status, prestige and conformity. (This may be a more 'modern' way of thinking about Capricorn, so out of place here).

I put it in google and some folks at least describe him as a crazy ass mormon.
http://www.datalounge.com/cgi-bin/iowa/ajax.html?t=11274644#page:showThread,11274644

Without access to the last year or so of his emails and phone calls the Mormonism or lack of influencing the decsion to do this is all a bit speculative.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1711
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi tom,

do you have a reference for the birthdata you provide on josh powell? thanks - james

one week later it appears the data is dirty as there is no source being provided for it.


Last edited by james_m on Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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unique_astrology



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 77

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote







**************************************

What reason would Josh Powell have to lie to the voter registration people or a psychologist evaluating him as to his fitness to raise his children?

Bob
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