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Simultaneous Detriment and Debility
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Simultaneous Detriment and Debility Reply with quote

The chart below is that of Joshua Powell and I assume the data is accurate. Powell was the major, and maybe the only, suspect in the disappearance and probable murder of his wife two years ago. Recently he lost a battle for the custody of his children. He was permitted supervised visitation. A social worker brought the children to his house. Powell pushed the worker away locked him or her out and kept the children inside. Minutes later the house exploded killing Powell and the two children in what is obviously a murder suicide. Cheerful stuff.

Powell was born on a new Moon and the Moon is within 9 minutes of exact conjunction in Capricorn. The Moon in other words is cazimi, but in Capricorn, it is also in detriment. The Moon rules the 7th house of the spouse. Cazimi doesn’t pop up in charts too often, and it is said to be a great dignity, but what are we to think of a cazimi Moon in detriment? What effect does that have? I’m sure it doesn’t mean everyone with this placement is a murderer. But Planets “behave” differently in different signs, so what is the deal with a simultaneous great dignity and great debility? Powell’s actions were not halfway.

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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure what we could say about the Moon here. Do you have any information on the nature of his relationships his mother? Since Saturn is overcoming the Lot of the Mother.

The 8th house placement of Saturn (both from Asc and Fortune) in his detriment and retrograde while ruling both lots, both luminaries and Mercury is rather telling for me, in this siuation.

EDIT: Actually, thinking about it. I don't see how Cazimi would make the Moon's actions or significations any less detrimented. The analogy is being on the throne with the king. So if you give a malefic influence the power over the King, they are still a malefic influence. Wouldn't it just make that malefic influence all the more massive?
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom

Thanks for raising this topic actually because it's something I've noticed a lot.

I've never ever ever seen a case where the moon has been cazimi and something good has come of it. Ever. I've had a few horaries in particular where the moon was, apparently, cazimi.

I actually don't think cazimi was ever meant to apply to the Moon, but to the other planets instead. The Moon is actually at its very weakest when its cazimi as it basically has no light whatsoever (declination not withstanding) and in fact I think a cazimi moon is probably one of the most debilitating places for it to be, much like we hear of in the tradition how a new moon is weak.

I wonder if someone who is more educated on traditional texts can find any examples of definitions of cazimi that refer either only to the planets, or refer or infer that the moon is also to be considered. I know we assume it a lot, but I actually think it's an incorrect assumption on our part.
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no information about his mother or any relationship with her good or bad. But I think the Moon is more likely to represent the wife since she rules the 7th. True Saturn is in the 7th but not in the 7th sign.

There are all sorts of sordid accusations in this case that I'm afraid will detract from the question, so I'm not bringing them up. Google Joshua Powell and read about them if you must.

I have doubts about combustion and cazimi in natal charts. They seem to work real well in horary. Keep in mind I said doubts not rejection. The point about the Moon at its weakest is pretty good as is the point of a planet in detriment will behave detrimentally only more so if in great accidental debility.

Note I do not expect anything in this chart to say:" He will kill his wife and two years later murder his children before killing himself." That's a bit much, but the spectacular is often more teachable than the subtle.
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Vasanth



Joined: 05 Jun 2011
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

Good example chart Thumbs up

My thoughts:

The Moon is cazimi i.e. in the heart of the King (Sun). But the Sun doesn't seem to be in good shape. The Sun is in poor state due to:
1. It is peregrine, (also out of sect)
2. Both its domicile and exaltation rulers, Saturn and Mars are in poor state on account of solar phase. Also Saturn is in detriment. Also they don't receive the Sun

The Sun rules the 8th house of the native. As such for the Moon being cazimi, should we interpret it as 'the moon in the heart of death' ???
Moon rules 7th of spouse and is the almuten of the 5th.

Sun and Saturn are in generosity involving 1st and 8th (whole-sign house). The ruler of 1st in 8th and 8th in 1st is an indicator of self-destruction.
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PFN



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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not believe in Cazimi anymore. It is too much of a miracle for me. But I certainly do believe in combustion.

Now, this chart is sort of horrid.

Moon, ruler of 7th by domicile and of 5th by exaltation, combust. Sun ruling 8th, in the 1st.

Saturn, ruler of 1st, in detriment, retrograde, and in the 8th. Mars, ruler of 1st by exaltation, retrograde and in the 6th. Venus, triplicity ruler of the 1st, in the 12th sign, and in orb of Saturn. Not to mention that Venus also rules the 5th, doubling the ominous testimony that the Moon is signaling. Also, Venus is in opposition to Mars by whole signs.

If you look closely at this chart, every planet falls either under the authority of a really bad Saturn and/or a really bad Mars. Sun, Moon and Mercury by domicile and exaltation in Capricorn, Jupiter in Aries under Mars, Venus under Jupiter, which in turn is ruled by Mars. I remember a chart very much like it, a mix of several planets in bad houses, and all of them ruled by malefics, and that is of Doc. Sam Sheppard, that in his defense, at least had a Jupiter ruling himself in the rising sign, which pointed to his innocence, in my humble opinion.
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Konrad



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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the topic of Cazimi, I hope no-one minds me posting this man's chart to demonstrate some evidence of its effects:



This is the chart of Josemaría Escrivá, the founder of Opus Dei. Opus Dei are about as Saturnian as you can get and this guy has Saturn dispositing every planet in his chart while 1 min in longitude and 9 min in latitude from the Sun - truly in its heart. Escriva was the son of a clothing store clerk and went on to be founder and head of one of the most profitable and far-reaching organisations in the Catholic world. They own banks, universities, parts of the media and are a major lobby in the Vatican. He himself went on to be beatified in 1982. Quite a striking example of cazimi, in my opinion.
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Nixx



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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Detriment and Debility Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Powell was born on a new Moon and the Moon is within 9 minutes of exact conjunction in Capricorn. The Moon in other words is cazimi, but in Capricorn, it is also in detriment. The Moon rules the 7th house of the spouse. Cazimi doesn’t pop up in charts too often, and it is said to be a great dignity, but what are we to think of a cazimi Moon in detriment? What effect does that have? I’m sure it doesn’t mean everyone with this placement is a murderer. But Planets “behave” differently in different signs, so what is the deal with a simultaneous great dignity and great debility? Powell’s actions were not halfway.




This story is unknown to me, but this is a striking chart. Was he a Mormon ?

Potential for extreme egocentrism with both lights in the 1st . A rising Moon needs to be noticed but submerged in the Sun like this you mignt think the person will throw rocks at anyone who looks at him/her.

Not a lot of 'feeling' here, even Mars is reduced to thought and detail in the Geminian 6th

It's not obvious to me how this Cazimi Moon was going to lead to an easy way of dealing with himself and the world.

Blowing yourself and the children up is quite a vivid image of how your instinctive needs to be nurtured were burnt by your Solar motivations.

Had he been an Astrologer he may have killed himself earlier. Did Capricorn get such a 'bad press' in the past as it does these days.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

................

Last edited by james_m on Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the best of my knowledge Powell was not a Mormon, although I'm not sure what that would have to do with anything.

He lost custody of his children because his father had child porn on his computer and the father lived with Joshua. So the kids were in that kind of environment, which was the justification their removal. It's unclear whether Joshua was linked with child porn. The authorities may have been building a case to justify permanent removal. He was instructed to undergo psycho-sexual evaluation before their return. I believe they were living with their mother's parents.

Using medieval techniques, we could spot a potential problem immediately. The ruler of the ASC and the lights is in aversion to both. There is a lack of connection between them. Of course he isn't the only person walking around with a chart that has Lord ASC in aversion to the ASC and they all aren't this far off, but it is a red flag.

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Tom
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad. I don' t mind your posting that chart at all. The discussion isn't limited to a single chart; it's about concept, although we'll surely end up discussing other facets of the chart I posted, and I hope yours. Charts illustrating your point of view are always welcome and in fact, encouraged.

I believe Josemaría Escrivá, was canonized (made a saint). Beautified is the last step before sainthood. Sainthood and cazimi are easy to link
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Josemaría Escrivá's chart it's interesting to see, that most planets are weakened either by combustion (Moon, Mercury and Jupiter) or cadency (Mars).Venus is the only angular planet. So maybe the concept of combustion doesn't apply to natal charts as Tom suggested..How else could the native's wealth, influence and reputation be explained? Combustion is supposed to be the greatest accidental debility....
Yuki
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Konrad



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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saturn disposits every planet in the chart (and receives most of them) from the fortunate 5th house, in his domicile and while he is cazimi.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How else could the native's wealth, ...


He wasn't personally wealthy. He was born to a middle class family that had serious financial problems at one point. He was an ordained Catholic priest. Although all priestly orders do not take vows of poverty, the priesthood does not generate individual wealth.
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Konrad



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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He controlled (managed) other's wealth - one of the indications of Saturn fortunate in the 5th sign. The man lived in opulence whether he claimed ownership of the wealth or not and his organisation accumulated banks, universities, student halls of residence, businesses etc. etc.
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