skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

primary directions verses solar arc directions
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3535
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:48 am    Post subject: primary directions verses solar arc directions Reply with quote

here is a chart i looked at earlier today that raises a few questions for me, but also gives an example of solar arc directions and primary directions that some might like to comment on... my question is this - how do others get the data to explain tom bradys success in the feb 3 2002 date of his being named mvp and winning the superbowl on this date?

first off, i am not thrilled with having a lot of data to have to process.. the idea of very few directions, as opposed to a lot is very appealing to my nature... however, i am interested in having the dots connect astrologically and since everyone here is either extremely shy, opinionated but holding back, or just not talking, i will continue..

tom brady the quarterback who won the mvp and superbowl 10 years ago tomorrow - feb 3 2002
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVI has a chart that is readily available to examine..
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Brady,_Tom

i mentioned this on another site, but want to share it here to possibly evoke some conversation from others using primary directions..

the solar arc directions are obvious as i see it.. the primary direction of jupiter sextile sun feb 12 2012 is obvious, but i have resorted to unorthodox means such as using the ascendant and 45 degree aspect which reveals an even better connection... either way jupiter and sun in bradys chart suggests much success as i see it..perhaps saturn does too, but it doesn't show up in the direction data like sun and jupiter...

for his chart:
sun - jupiter in a close 45 degree aspect... midpoint is 19 cancer 02, 1 degree off the midheaven.. sun/jupiter can represent a sports or athletic person to me.. mars/sun perhaps is even better and this midpoints directly onto pluto in the ascendant..

midheaven/ascendant midpoint and sun/jupiter midpoint are the same if you use 45/135 type aspects.. look at the 4th harmonic chart..


10 years ago tomorrow, he won the super bowl game- feb 3 2002 and was named mvp.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVI

sa jupiter conjunct midheaven close to exact...
sa ascendant exact square to sun, and thus 135 to jupiter as sun/jupiter are in a 45 with one another...

primary direction of ascendant 45 to sun exact feb 3 2002..

primary direction of jupiter sextile sun exact feb 12 2002..

perhaps this is an example of both methods reinforcing one another... jupiter in the 9th with sun in the 11th using whole/sign houses seems to confer greatness to the chart..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 126
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,
First of all, if you are working with a chart that it is not rectified, you should be aware that you are working on chart for someone born at 11.48 am PDT, but not necessarily on the chart for Tom Brady… In most cases, the true birth time is NOT as the recoded birth time and for primary directions, as well as for SA (if you want to see the aspects to angles) you must have a rectified chart.
Using 13 events, I rectified his chart to 11.44.12 PDT Asc 17Lib05'.
Primary directions in Topocentric system for his great success on 3 Feb 2002:
MC 0 Jupiter 8'
Jupiter 0 MC 2'
Uranus 0 Asc 6'
III 120 Mercury 2'
Moon 60 Jupiter 2'
Node 60 Mercury 2'
Moon 90 III 2'
In secondary directions:
MC 0 Jupiter 3'
MC 0 Sun 9'
Mercury 60 MC 10'
For some events you can't see any appropriate aspects in primary directions: for the birth of his 2 sons and for his marriage. One can see the appropriate aspects only when the Epoch is using in the dual test method.
Example, birth of son on 8 Dec 2009:
Asc 120 Sun E/E 0'
MC 0 V R/E 0'
Jupiter 180 MC R/E 5'
Mars 0 PAF E/E 6'
Jupiter 0 Jupiter E/R 1'
And in secondary, dual test:
MC 180 Ven E/R 0'
Mars 60 MC R/R 7'
Mars 60 V E/R 10'
Mars 0 Jupiter R/R 6'
Jupiter 0 V R/E 7'
Look at his epoch chart: 18 Nov 1976 11.58.44 PST Asc 8Aqu16':
Sun and Mars 180 Jupiter exactly on the MC/IC axis!
I can assure you that at least in 75%, the epoch is reflecting the destiny of the person much more distinctively.
Which primary directions are you using? Not Topo, as I can see.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3535
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isaac,

thanks for taking the time to comment here and give your perspective on the importance of a rectified time. i agree with you! i actually like the adjustment you have made to the time as it puts the midheaven much closer to the sun/jupiter midpoint! rectification has got to be one of the most challenging parts of astrology and unfortunately there is no easy path to being 100% confident with the time of birth other then thru this process. tom brady data is off a birth certificate, but i still think it is necessary to run the events of a persons life to the time on the b.c. in order to verify it...

here are some of my concerns around the topic of primary directions. there are a number of different ways of arriving at the data. it isn't just whether it is topocentric or geocentric, but also whether one looks at mundane or zodiac positions, what key one is using to arrive at the data, and etc. etc.. i am sure if i looked at all the options i might be able to find some method that captured the birth of his son, or his marriage, but that isn't my reason for saying all this..

i have a hard time with too much data.. i would like the data to fit with an event, but perhaps some events don't come with data, or they do but the time is not exact.. one way for me to lessen the amount of data is to completely ignore house cusps... this is easy for me to do as i find the number of options on house systems too varied to really amount to all of what people say they amount to.. i find it easiest to work with the angles - ascendant and midheaven axis... perhaps i could work with the vertex axis too, as i might get more from that they folks say they get from a particular house cusp...

i don't have confidence in epoch charts and i don't know what the dual test method is.. i think it is shooting at the moon thinking one can get at this exact data and i don't see why it is considered so essential for predictive work.. maybe you could explain the basis for it's importance if you felt so inclined..

maybe you could also comment on your thoughts on whether the data has to be exact for an event to happen.. my impression reading different material on primary directions is an exact time is not what these old astro masters were looking at.. they were working with less pd data in combination with other traditional methods like revolutions, and etc with transits as the most minor consideration.. i am intrigued by this approach as i feel it has something meaningful to it in this regard.. we can never know just what these events mean to tom brady.. we can say he achieved great success in a worldly context, but never know just how the events impacted him personally... perhaps winning the 1st super bowl was an incredible moment for him, but perhaps another event that led up to this event was more significant in his mind? this is where i think less data to look at might be more meaningful..

i am speculating on all of this.. i would like to hear more from others here.. are you using primary directions or not? if so what have you found to work? isaac and atlantean have been generous and providing concrete examples using topocentric positions and for that i am grateful.. surely others are working with primary directions and if so what are you finding in relation to other methods such as solar arc directions? thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello james m

You're welcome! Smile

Re: ".. one way for me to lessen the amount of data is to completely ignore house cusps..."

Yes, but for this system (Topocentric Primary Directions), you WILL want to take special notice of the house cusps as they are hot spots. For birth of Siblings, you will often have almost exact aspects with the 3rd cusp (only Topo!)...for long-distance travel, 9th cusp... for issues of death, 8th cusp. These are part of what makes one time stand out in high relief to the others in Primary Directions.

Here is just a quick example from ONE chart (all aspects are TPD's)

Birth of Sister, Node with 3rd, 0° 5'

Death of Grandmother, Node and Venus with 8th, 0° 2' and 0° 10'

Death of Friend, Mars with 8th, 0° 5'

Married, Uranus with 5th, 0° 1'

Death of Wife, Uranus with 8th, 0° 10'

Death of Mother, Moon with 8th, 0° 9'

...or from my own chart...

Birth of Sister, Sun with 3rd, 0° 2'

Birth of Brother, Mars with 3rd, 0° 6'

Death of Grandfather, Node with 8th, 0° 3'

Death of Mother, Neptune with 8th, 0° 1'

Birth of Son, Mars with 5th, 0° 1'

Death of Grandmother, Moon with 8th, 0° 6'

Begin Affair with Future Wife, Venus with 5th, 0° 1'

Birth of Son, Moon with 5th, 0° 1'

Move Overseas, Jupiter with 9th, 0° 5'

Birth of Daughter, Mars with 5th, 0° 1'

Wonderful Vacation Overseas in Italy, Venus with 9th, 0° 6'

Death of Ex-Wife, Moon with 8th, 8th with Mars, 0° 5' (both)

In Topocentric Primary Directions, planets contacting specific cusps relate to the events of the time. In these two examples that I am showing, there were 20 different aspects with a combined orb of 1° 25', which gives an average orb (at event) of only 0° 4'. That's tight.

Re: House Systems

Remember that the Topocentric system was derived empirically from looking at appropriate Primary Directions to cusps for events in well-timed horoscopes. The Topocentric cusps ARE the locations of the hot spots for houses using Primary Directions. Having reviewed many different methods of Primary Directions, I would say the lack of having reliable hot spots is enough justification to kick them to the curb. Wink

Take care,

James


Last edited by Atlantean on Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 685

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atlantean, the symbolism doesn't seem to make sense to me with those directions. What does Uranus have to do with the Grandmother? Or with the wife? Or the Sun or the node with birth of the sister?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3535
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atlantean,

start a thread on topo verses geo coordinates.. see if you get any response!

i am sure a similar conversation could be had with parallax moon verses not, or mean node verses real node and on and on... give astrologers at least a 100 years to sort it out.. maybe you are ahead of the research curve...

i don't think your comment on the bottom is going to go over too well here btw..

james
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello james m

Re: My comment

Okay...if you really think it might ruffle feathers, then I'll edit it out.

Thanks for the tip!

James
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello konrad

Re: "Atlantean, the symbolism doesn't seem to make sense to me with those directions. What does Uranus have to do with the Grandmother? Or with the wife? Or the Sun or the node with birth of the sister?"

With 20 listed aspects, I am glad that you only found a few that were confusing...

Re: "What does Uranus have to do with the Grandmother?"

I can't find any Primary Direction that I listed relating to the Grandmother that has Uranus in it.

Re: "...or with the Wife..."

As well as signifying sudden, unexpected events, Uranus rules the 5th House, romantic interests, love given.

Re: "Or the Sun or Node with birth of Sister..."

The Node relates to associations and especially familial ones.

The Sun with 3rd relating to Birth of Sister is an empirical observation. It is listed prominently in the Polaris appendix as common in Primary Direction for this particular event and has been noticed many times myself in other charts for birth of Sister.

Take care

James
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 685

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the Sun represents the birth of a sister? That kinda goes against the whole astrological logic I have learned. Would you mind testing it out on my chart? Just so you know, I'm not trying to disprove your version of directions. Rather I am trying to find an alternative since I don't find semi-arc directions to be so effective when used traditionally. I much rather directing the Hyleg using Ascensional times, so anything which adds accuracy to the predictions is fine by me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello konrad,

Re: "Would you mind testing it out on my chart?"

I would be happy to provide you with the Topocentric Primary Directions for some events. (I would be more comfortable, since it is showcasing this technique, if I had rectified your chart using these methods, but really don't have time right at the moment.)

Still, I'd be happy to give it a look and show you the TPD's. Just give me your birthdata and a few events, okay?

Peace

James
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
atlantean,

start a thread on topo verses geo coordinates.. see if you get any response!

i am sure a similar conversation could be had with parallax moon verses not, or mean node verses real node and on and on... give astrologers at least a 100 years to sort it out.. maybe you are ahead of the research curve...

i don't think your comment on the bottom is going to go over too well here btw..

james


Um, topocentric coordinates are those that correct for parallax. Has nothing to do with the Topocentric house system and its associated system of primary directions.

Atlantean, you do have to admit that the modification of the Topocentric house system formula for extreme geographic latitudes (as presented in the Page and Polich book) was more of an exercise in creative "formula"-tion than of empiricism. Reminded me a bit of some of Johndro's speculations.

Also, my impression was that initially the geometry of the system was based on ascensional transits and a "curve fit" to determine the cusps, rather than primaries per se. And that the ascensional transits were mundane rather than zodiacal (but memory may be failing on that one)?

- Ed
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 126
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
So the Sun represents the birth of a sister? That kinda goes against the whole astrological logic I have learned. Would you mind testing it out on my chart? Just so you know, I'm not trying to disprove your version of directions. Rather I am trying to find an alternative since I don't find semi-arc directions to be so effective when used traditionally. I much rather directing the Hyleg using Ascensional times, so anything which adds accuracy to the predictions is fine by me.


No, it is the 3rd house that represents the sister, and it doesn't matter if it is the significator or the promissor. The Sun, Moon, Mercury and Uranus are neutral, and they can be in happy event or in bad event according to the second factor and the aspect.
It is important to designate that the list Atlantean gave are only an extract, i.e. for each major event there are always SEVERAL appropriate aspects.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
skorpio87



Joined: 25 Dec 2016
Posts: 19

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am posting super late in this thread but here are my 2 cents:

I use solar arcs, secondary progressions and primary directions. In my experience solar arcs are very powerful, very accurate and very descriptive. In spite of my preference for traditional techniques, solar arcs are one modern technique which I highly advocate. As for secondary progressions; I have found them quite accurate as well; however in my experience it is important to use them within the proper guidelines (my own personal ones listed below) in order to get accurate results for them. As for primary directions, I am not sure about them but this is because I don't have enough experience with them yet; they seem to be hit and miss, but mostly hit. I think this is mostly due to the fact that I haven't had adequate experience with them yet though.

solar arcs:
-hard aspects only
-orb of .5 degree applying and separating
-I use traditional and modern planets
-I use universal and accidental rulerships

secondary progressions:
-I only use secondary progressed planets aspecting natal planets. I have found this is quite reliable and reduces the signal/noise ratio as opposed to using secondary progressed planets aspecting other secondary progressed planets; which gets really messy and overly subjective in my experience
-I use universal and accidental rulerships
-I use an orb of 1 degree approaching, .5 separating
-I use all the traditional aspects soft and hard
-As noted above, the secondary progressed moon is extremely useful in my experience and almost always correlates with significant time periods or events.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Page 5 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated