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In Mundo vs Zodiacal Aspects
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:

hi ed,

we posted at about the same time and i wanted to say i found your comments really interesting.. i don't think you are saying this, but perhaps you could tell me if you are.. regarding the idea of associating manifestation with planets in right ascension as opposed to zodiac position, are you suggesting the zodiac positions are less likely to reveal events in a concrete manner? maybe that is not what you are saying, but it sounds like you might be. thanks!


My experience is that you need both a zodiacal and a mundane aspect, with the latter generally having tighter orb. Note that I'm not talking about positions in right ascension, but the third category Martin mentioned based on proportional motion along the semiarcs.

Quote:

on 2nd thought ed, perhaps i could provide a feature of my own chart as an example. in zodiac positions my sun/moon is in a 135 aspect.. in right ascension it is in a 120 relationship.. how would you define this difference? i am presently trying to get my head around the differences..


Assuming the second is in the measure I just mentioned, you would have the tension of the zodiacal 135 finding frequent release due to the mundane trine. Possibly at inappropriate times or in inappropriate ways. Obviously the conditions of Sun and Moon need to be considered.

- Ed
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed,

Did you get my recent update on PD's? I was working on them recently. I enabled the other option "Significator Aspects to Promissors" having finally linked the TPromissor object in reverse. I'm still working on a way to link independent latitude for zodiacal directions (at this point it uses no latitude or Bianchini for both, but not latitude of significator (only) or latitude of promissor (only). My time has been extremely limited.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi ed,

thanks for that! i was talking right ascension verses zodiac.. how to i get the proportional motion along the semi arcs? it sounds tricky and if it is too laborious to explain then don't, but thanks! perhaps solar fire 7.3.1 has an option that will provide this for me as well, but i am unaware of it presently..

james
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:
Ed,

Did you get my recent update on PD's? I was working on them recently. I enabled the other option "Significator Aspects to Promissors" having finally linked the TPromissor object in reverse. I'm still working on a way to link independent latitude for zodiacal directions (at this point it uses no latitude or Bianchini for both, but not latitude of significator (only) or latitude of promissor (only). My time has been extremely limited.


Hi Curt,

No, I don't think I did. What was the date on it? (And how best to get it? You have my email).

- Ed
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi ed,

thanks for that! i was talking right ascension verses zodiac.. how to i get the proportional motion along the semi arcs? it sounds tricky and if it is too laborious to explain then don't, but thanks! perhaps solar fire 7.3.1 has an option that will provide this for me as well, but i am unaware of it presently..

james


If you have a program that writes a speculum as part of its primary directions calculations, the speculum for mundane directions will likely give the OA/OD position of the bodies. You can used the differences in these values to indicate that Placidus style mundane aspects. Don't overlook reflections around the angles.

- Ed
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james_m



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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks ed. i will look into this more.. i have solar fire 7.3 version.. i also have the morinus prog, but don't know everything i can get from both of these.
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi ed,

how to i get the proportional motion along the semi arcs? it sounds tricky and if it is too laborious to explain then don't, but thanks! perhaps solar fire 7.3.1 has an option that will provide this for me as well, but i am unaware of it presently..

james


Morinus speculum gives the hourly distance, ie the mundane position in the quadrant, so you can easily get it.

Moreover Robert will soon fix Morinus, so you can have directly a mundane chart without effort.

Obviously SF should do the same in the "mundoscope"- at least I believe.
margherita
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at chart examples of zodiacal vs mundane aspects Prince Charles is interesting: 14th November, 1948, 21:14 GMT, London, England, United Kingdom.

Mars (MC ruler), and Saturn (7th house ruler) form no zodiacal aspect in his natal chart. However, they form a tight in mundo square! As Charles was the heir to the throne of the British monarchy his marriage to Lady Diana Spencer was a very public matter and their acrimonious separation and divorce was international news. The whole affair did much to dramatically diminish the public reputation of Charles as his long term relationship with Camilla Parker-Bowles became exposed.

Natal Chart



In Mundo Aspects

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Last edited by Mark on Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
thanks ed. i will look into this more.. i have solar fire 7.3 version.. i also have the morinus prog, but don't know everything i can get from both of these.


I just remembered. astro.com gives this info in a table at the bottom left of their "Astrodienst Fixed Star" style chart (which is a great learning tool in itself). Available in their free charts section under "extended chart selection".

- Ed
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks margherita and ed,

margherita - i look forward to roberts fix so that i can see that.

ed- i went and played around with astro.com free chart with the directions you gave.. i can see a lot of star paran data, but was unable to pull up a chart in right ascension via their site.. thanks regardless as it was rewarding.
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 132

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an interesting example John Worsdale gives in his book Celestial Philosophy.





A natal chart of a boy who died violently in his second year of life (was kicked by a Horse in his forehead). John Worsdale claims that he predicted the death, that is, the probable death and worn the parents 10 days prior, to keep the child in safe. But nothing can escape the "unchangeable decree of the omnipotent creator" as Worsdale stated, so he gives the "Astral causes" for the violent death:

Quote:
Ascendant is afflicted by the body of Saturn, and square of the Moon, and [square of] Mars in mundo.


As you can see in the natal chart, Mars is way too off to consider it as an zodiacal aspect, that is, his orbs are way off from the Ascendant and Saturn (if we neglect aspects by whole signs). But as we can see in the second chart, Mars is closely aspecting the ascendant and Saturn in Mundo!

I will not expose the whole delineation Worsdale give, but will point out only the Mundane aspects he uses. So I skip sections of his Delienation.

Then he noticed that Moon would apply to a square of Saturn in Mundo by direct motion.

Worsdale also notice that among all the evil configurations, benefics could not assist because Jupiter is in the Heart of the Scorpion and afflicted by the square of Saturn, while Venus is hurt by the opposition of Saturn and square of Mars in Mundo!

So, we can see again here that Mars doesn't touch by his rays nor Saturn nor Venus, but he makes with both Mundane Square.

Later on Worsdale analysis the Solar Revolution for the year and the transits on the day of death. Quite an interesting book to read, full with examples and real treasure for the practitioner astrologers.
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Paul
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Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've removed a couple of posts from this thread.

It's ok to cite Robert Hand or extract relevant short quotes. It is not ok to copy and paste entire pages of his work into this forum.

Paul
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Raymond Scott



Joined: 08 Mar 2012
Posts: 44

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a strong interest in parans which Kenneth Bowser refers to as mundane aspects because I desire a Multidimensional Astrology that goes beyond just using Ecliptic Longitude which is the zodiac chart. I have been using Right Ascension (Equatorial Longitude) and Declination (Equatorial Latitude) years before I started using parans regularly.
After reading about Oblique Ascension and Oblique Descension, I understand parans a lot more.

I already know that objects that conjunct in Right Ascension within a 2 degree orb have a corresponding culminating,culminating paran (culminate together) and a corresponding anti-culminating,anti-culminating paran (anti-culminate together) and that objects that oppose in Right Ascension within a 2 degree orb have two corresponding culminating,anti-culminating parans (one culminates while the other anti-culminates).
I read that the formula for the rising, setting, culminating, and anticulminating of planets rely on right ascension and declination of the planet and the geographic latitude of the horoscope
Right Ascension, Oblique Ascension, and Oblique Descension are factors in parans.
The Sidereal Time paran connections between objects are the result of the objects being connected via the factors of Right Ascension,Oblique Ascension,Oblique Descension.

Right Ascension: the angular distance eastward along the celestial equator from the vernal equinox to the intersection of the hour circle that passes through the body; expressed in hours and minutes and second; used with declination to specify positions on the celestial sphere
Oblique Ascension: an arc of the equator, intercepted between the first point of Aries and that point of the equator which rises together with a celestial object, in an oblique sphere; or the arc of the equator intercepted between the first point of Aries and that point of the equator that comes to the horizon with a celestial object
Oblique Descension: the degree or arc of the equator which descends, with a celestial object, below the horizon of an oblique sphere.

Robert Hand's explanation of oblique ascension:
First an explanation of oblique ascension. On the equator all positions on the celestial sphere, regardless of declination, rise along with their right ascensions at 0 degrees declination. This is because at the terrestrial equator the celestial equator rises in the east exactly perpendicular to the horizon, hence the term "right" ascension, "right" meaning perfectly upright. But either north or south of the terrestrial equator positions on the celestial sphere do not rise with their positions measured in right ascension. They rise along some other degree on the celestial equator. This other degree is the oblique (or slantwise) ascension of our hypothetical position on the celestial sphere. It is called oblique ascension because the celestial equator at latitudes other than 0 degrees north or south rises slantwise or obliquely in the east, the further away from 0 terrestrial latitude (the equator), the more obliquely. Therefore, the oblique ascension of position A can be defined as whatever degree on the equator may be rising when A exactly touches the horizon assuming that A is not on the celestial equator, i.e., that A has a declination not equal to 0."
http://www.arhatmedia.com/tropzo.htm

Philip Sedgwick noted about parans:
"While some astrologers scratch their heads, others investigate the angular relations along the potent Celestial Equator circular reference.
Often when measuring to the Celestial Equator instead of the ecliptic, other unnoted parallels and contra-parallels emerge. Again, a parallel or contra-parallel on this circle operates the same as such an alignment on the other circle.

Meanwhile the factor of the Paran adds a doubled effect as well. Using either the Celestial Equator or Ecliptic, a Paran technically can be measured. A Paran on the Celestial Equator would not correlate to one on the Ecliptic. And again, remaining attached to only one sphere of measure ignores other critical angles calling out for interpretive attention. Paran, comes from paranatellonta, meaning literally, "rising side by side." This refers to a transiting object and natal object rising over the horizon and meridian at the same time. Many combinations of Parans are available coming from the factors of oblique ascension, oblique descension, and right ascension.
http://www.noeltyl.com/~noeltyl3/techniques/011130.html

Rob Hand in Essays on Astrology defines parans as “simultaneous transits over two or more bodies over the horizon or meridian circles of a given place at the same time.” Hand defines seven types of parans as follows:
1. Two bodies rising together (conjunct the oblique Ascendant).
2. One rises while the other sets (oblique Ascendant opposition the oblique Descendant).
3. One rises, the other culminates or anti-culminates (oblique Ascendant square right ascension).
4. Two bodies set together (conjunct the oblique Descendant).
5. One body sets, the other culminates or anti-culminates (oblique Descendant square right ascension).
6. Two bodies culminate or anti-culminate together (conjunct the right ascension).
7. One culminates while the other anti-culminates (right ascension opposition right ascension).
http://www.alabe.com/text/Dineen-AstofPlace.html

David Cochrane's wonderful (in my view, unparalleled) Astrology program Sirius’ Speculum lists Sidereal Hours for the rising, culminating, setting, and anti-culminating of the objects as well as the Right Ascension,Oblique Ascension, and Oblique Descension of the objects.
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unique_astrology



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 152

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJ tRump has a 3 planet paran of Sun, Moon, and Mars in his birth chart which fits very well with his bombastic nature. It is possibly the most powerful ingredient in his chart as it has the 2 lights and the most angular planet in his chart which is in the first house.

Right ascensions and angularity of points can be generated in Solar Fire.

The image of the paran in longitude with LST angles.



The image of the speculum showing LST angles at angularity. This can be set to show clock time, LST times or LST angles.



3 ways the positions can be shown.

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Raymond Scott



Joined: 08 Mar 2012
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In his book, Essays on Astrology,
Robert Hand pointed out that declination is the vertical dimension of Right Ascension and not ecliptic longitude even though some astrologers use declination along with ecliptic longitude instead of Right Ascension.
Robert Hand wrote one cannot say that if Saturn rises while Mars culminates, Saturn will necessarily culminate while Mars sets because of geometry planetary transits over angles. He pointed out that a paran on one pair of angles does not mean that there will be parans on other pairs of angles at the same time. He noted that If two bodies are also in parallel of declination when they are in paran, they will always transit the angles in pairs and be in paran on any pair of angles. He also wrote that contraparallels also synchronize the rising, culminating, setting and lower culmination patterns of pairs of planets, but not as perfectly as parallels.
He noted that eclipses of the Sun are also parallels and that the Sun conjunct Moon while parallel Moon will transit all angles simultaneously He also notes that shows that an eclipse is both a zodiacal aspect and a paran aspect. He raises the possibility that is part of the reason that eclipses are so powerful.

In his book, Horoscope Symbols, Robert Hand wrote that parallels,contraparallels might not have much astrological influence unless they are in conjunction,opposition in Declination Longitude Equivalent Chart

Robert Hand pointed out that parans take both latitude and Declination into consideration.
He also noted that the Babylonians used parans long before aspects on the ecliptic. He also pointed that Babylonian Astrology was an observational one, and that the horizon and meridian circles are much more easily seen outdoors than the ecliptic. He also noted that Ptolemy discussed parans in the Almagest. Robert Hand wrote that parans appear to represent a direct and powerful linking of planetary energies although it is not clear what differences there might be among the various type of parans.
Parans depend upon the latitude of location. The important thing is that the two bodies cross the great circle of the horizon or meridian. Paran transits are affected by changing geographic latitude.

Robert Hand used a 4 degree (16 minutes of Sidereal Time) for natal parans, but I prefer using 2 degree orb (8 minutes of Sidereal Time) and 1 1/2 degree orb (6 minutes of Sidereal Time) for dwarf planet/candidates and major asteroids/protoplanets.
He used a 1 degree orb for transiting parans to natal parans. If transiting parans to natal parans can be used, I don't see why parans cannot be used in synastry which is actually the older person's transits at the time that the younger person was born. I always thought that the older person could re-live the psychological influences of the transits that he/she had when the younger person was born through the interaction with the younger person.

Robert Hand originally looked at the Right Ascension, Oblique Ascension, and/or Oblique Descension degrees for the transits to natal, and I was wondering if we could look at those before I even read his book. I was already looking at transits to natal in Right Ascension. Now, I realize that only the Right Ascension conjunction, opposition may be valid in looking at transits to natal for they actual parans. Other Right Ascension aspects are not parans.
Robert Hand referred to the transits as 'Ascensional Transits.'

Robert Hand later changed to looking at Sidereal Times (ST) or RAMC (Right Ascension in the Medium Coeli aka Midheaven) rising,culminating,setting,anti-culminating of the planets.

I really like the way Robert Hand thinks and views things in Astrology. He questions what most astrologers do. He does things that most astrologers don't do.


Last edited by Raymond Scott on Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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