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Book III of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
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Notes on Dorotheus III: the haylāj, Kadhkhudāh, and terms of life
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Football January 2012
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Janis Valkovskis



Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 508

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad, I admit I got wrong Everton - Bolton. I did not believe that they would lose (I thought it would be a draw on account that Jupiter rules ASC by triplicity and Mercury, lord of hour and day, is in the same triplicity as ASC.

First, we look whether the sig has any dignity in angles, in particular ASC. Well, Jupiter has triplicity there.

Second, we look how the planet is received by the luminaries, in particular that one who rules the time. The Moon was in Taurus in the same sign as Jupiter, so that from this perspective Jupiter is disposed pretty well by the Moon.
As Everton (blue) is definitely Jupiter, there were only two planets who would be a fit sig for Bolton (mixture of white and navy) - Mercury in Sagitarius or Venus in Aquarius. If you chose the latter, then it is obvious who would win (Venus disposes Moon, who herself has exaltation, here and Jupiter by house).

The problem is if Bolton's sig is Mercury, then this combination should favour Everton and least they should have drawn assuming that the dispositor has some power over the planet who it disposes. On the other hand it seems that the planet can hardly exercise its power over one who it disposes if she is inconjunct the domicile sign in which the relevant planet is.

However, I have observed (some more testing is needed) that it is bad for the team if the planet who rules the hour also rules the opposite sign of its sig (here its negative effect could be reinforced by Mercury ruling also the day).

There was also some other corruption of Jupiter - Sun, the ruler of ASC, was in Capricorn, fall of Jupiter - Everton's sig. I would like to give more weight to this negative testimony than being in the same triplicity as the Sun, ruler of ASC, and in the 10th from ASC. Besides being in the same triplicity tends to produce draw, if there is a fave to move the result away from the result.

It's very hard to weight the testimonies one against other, in particular if there is a coctail of contradictory ones.

If Newcastle - Manchester was a straightforward underdog's game, Everton - Bolton was a mixture of contradictory testimonies where negative ones proved to oughtweigh the positive ones.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 587

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I appreciate it is at times difficult, Janis and I think Venus would probably be the correct colour signification for Bolton.

The ancient consideration of domicile rulership was one of a guest/host relationship rather than one of power. A planet in another's sign had to work with the resources of that planet which rules the sign it is currently traversing, so have you ever thought of looking also at the colour significator's dispositor for an indication of what it has to use?

Are you using quadrant based houses in your predictions, Janis? I ask as Mars is angular in Alcabitius in the Man Utd chart but is averse to the Asc in the 2nd sign, so perhaps this would weaken Man Utd further?
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Janis Valkovskis



Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 508

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
Quote:
The ancient consideration of domicile rulership was one of a guest/host relationship rather than one of power. A planet in another's sign had to work with the resources of that planet which rules the sign it is currently traversing, so have you ever thought of looking also at the colour significator's dispositor for an indication of what it has to use?


That's right but not in war charts. If the ruler of ASC is in the 7th (opposite sign), this is for sure that the querent's army will not succeed in a war according to Bonatti. The same is true in a competition, which bears some similarity with war. There the rulership means not a guest/host relationship when the host tries to attend to the guest's needs as best as he can, there it means only power.

I use the sig's dispositor only to see which kind of reception or any at all it has with the sig. If there is negative one or the dispositor is in its own detriment or fall, it corrupts the sig.

I use Placidus cusps but consider a planet angular only if it is in the same sign as the cusp of the relevant angle. Yes, Mars was averse to ASC in the 2nd sign, but it does not matter so much if compared with the Moon, ruler of the time and the hour, being in detriment of Mars in Taurus. So Moon was "greeting" Mars from the latter's detriment. I think that aversion should weaken further the relevant sig, but it was not the main testimony.
If we consider that a planet who is not in its own domicile depends on the condition of its dispositor, then Mercury for sure will kill its guest, unlucky Mars.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 587

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Janis Valkovskis wrote:
That's right but not in war charts. If the ruler of ASC is in the 7th (opposite sign), this is for sure that the querent's army will not succeed in a war according to Bonatti. The same is true in a competition, which bears some similarity with war. There the rulership means not a guest/host relationship when the host tries to attend to the guest's needs as best as he can, there it means only power.

I use the sig's dispositor only to see which kind of reception or any at all it has with the sig. If there is negative one or the dispositor is in its own detriment or fall, it corrupts the sig.

I use Placidus cusps but consider a planet angular only if it is in the same sign as the cusp of the relevant angle. Yes, Mars was averse to ASC in the 2nd sign, but it does not matter so much if compared with the Moon, ruler of the time and the hour, being in detriment of Mars in Taurus. So Moon was "greeting" Mars from the latter's detriment. I think that aversion should weaken further the relevant sig, but it was not the main testimony.
If we consider that a planet who is not in its own domicile depends on the condition of its dispositor, then Mercury for sure will kill its guest, unlucky Mars.


Of course but in Bonatti's charts, he is using the Asc/Dsc axis, so one of the rulers in detriment will show it positioned in the other's house - not a consideration here.

Have you taken note of when a significator is in aversion to its dispositor?
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
Have you taken note of when a significator is in aversion to its dispositor?

This is great astrology! But what do you mean?? By powers or application? I thought a planet applying to it's dispositor was worthy of consideration whatever aspect...
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew Bevan wrote:
Konrad wrote:
Have you taken note of when a significator is in aversion to its dispositor?

This is great astrology! But what do you mean?? By powers or application? I thought a planet applying to it's dispositor was worthy of consideration whatever aspect...


By "aversion" I mean the planet cannot see its dispositor by any of the classical aspects.
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Janis Valkovskis



Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 508

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
Quote:
Of course but in Bonatti's charts, he is using the Asc/Dsc axis, so one of the rulers in detriment will show it positioned in the other's house - not a consideration here.

Have you taken note of when a significator is in aversion to its dispositor?


In practice it is the same, if a planet is not its house, it is in the power of the planet who rules the sign which the former is traversing. It only matters as a consideration here if there is a team wearing a kit the colours of which embodies the ruling planet. If there is no such team, I judge the first planet's strength, first, after its accidental strength (angular or not) and, second, the condition of its dispositor, namely if there is a negative reception (one in other's detriment of fall or other), or the dispositor is badly placed or inconjunct (only whole sign aspects), etc.

The same I started doing for the Sun and the Moon with respect to their dispositor; I have observed that the power to act of the relevant luminary seems to depend on the relationship with its dispositor (opposition seems to be lethal, inconjunction tends to draw in general) the same I do for POF and its dispositor and consider the same (opposition if close to partile is lethal, inconjunction tends to draw). Then I weigh up the testimonies which is the hardest part of the task.

A 30 aspect (whole signs) seem neither harm much nor support the sig; more likely it harms the sig.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Janis Valkovskis wrote:
Konrad wrote:
Quote:
Of course but in Bonatti's charts, he is using the Asc/Dsc axis, so one of the rulers in detriment will show it positioned in the other's house - not a consideration here.

Have you taken note of when a significator is in aversion to its dispositor?


In practice it is the same, if a planet is not its house, it is in the power of the planet who rules the sign which the former is traversing. It only matters as a consideration here if there is a team wearing a kit the colours of which embodies the ruling planet. If there is no such team, I judge the first planet's strength, first, after its accidental strength (angular or not) and, second, the condition of its dispositor, namely if there is a negative reception (one in other's detriment of fall or other), or the dispositor is badly placed or inconjunct (only whole sign aspects), etc.

The same I started doing for the Sun and the Moon with respect to their dispositor; I have observed that the power to act of the relevant luminary seems to depend on the relationship with its dispositor (opposition seems to be lethal, inconjunction tends to draw in general) the same I do for POF and its dispositor and consider the same (opposition if close to partile is lethal, inconjunction tends to draw). Then I weigh up the testimonies which is the hardest part of the task.

A 30 aspect (whole signs) seem neither harm much nor support the sig; more likely it harms the sig.


Ok, thanks for explaining.

I am assuming that your use of the sect light and the POF are describing the team expected to win. Am I correct in that?
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Janis Valkovskis



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Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am assuming that your use of the sect light and the POF are describing the team expected to win. Am I correct in that?


That's right, but I put much more credibility of the relationship of the sect light with its dispositor than POF and its dispositor. If there is a positive relationship (good reception or at least an aspect, except of course oposition), it's a good news for the fave in general, if one currupts in the way I said previously it's a bad news. If the relevant planet or the sect light is the sig you can be more confident. The Moon below horizont in a night chart in general is bad, in particular if his dispositor is out of sect.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 587

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Janis Valkovskis wrote:
Quote:
I am assuming that your use of the sect light and the POF are describing the team expected to win. Am I correct in that?


That's right, but I put much more credibility of the relationship of the sect light with its dispositor than POF and its dispositor. If there is a positive relationship (good reception or at least an aspect, except of course oposition), it's a good news for the fave in general, if one currupts in the way I said previously it's a bad news. If the relevant planet or the sect light is the sig you can be more confident. The Moon below horizont in a night chart in general is bad, in particular if his dispositor is out of sect.


It is interesting that you say that as I have been reading some natal astrology tonight which states that a planet is more at ease in the domicile of one of their sect-mates.

Would you mind looking at a chart I have tonight which I am not seeing the resolution of?
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Janis Valkovskis



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Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, we can discuss it personally via email (dzivibaskoks@inbox.lv) or here in the forum as you please.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. I'll do it here just so others can learn from it too.




Match is Cambridge vs Southport in the Blue Square Premier. Both are about the same positions. Cambridge wear yellow shirts and black shorts and Southport are presumably in their change kit of white with black trim and small hoops and black shorts as seen here in a recent match against Alfreton Town FC:



Moon is in a good place but with a debilitated dispositor. I'm going for Cambridge as the Sun who is in the 6th place in not-reception with its dispositor and in the fall of the hour lord and either Venus or Saturn as Southport's significator. Either way they have an advantage over Cambridge (Saturn disposes the Sun, Venus the hour lord).

The final result was Cambridge 3 - 0 Southport.
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Of course but in Bonatti's charts...

Unfortunately, Bonatti hadn't got the faintest clue about the Premier League and I am not sure he did football charts. I do think that if astrological principles can be taken to judge the outfall of footbll contests, then surely this indeed is surpassing Bonatti. This is the challenge...
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Janis Valkovskis



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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, we must consider whether the sig (agreeably to colours) has any dignity on ASC. If Cambrigde played in yellow, then their sig Sun rules ASC by house. It's good.

Well, the Sun is inconjunct his domicile and inconjunct the Moon (sect light), but this should not be a serious debility if the sig has strong dignity on ASC.

Second, we must consider how the Moon is received by the sigs and vice versa. The Sun does not receive her. If Stockport plays in white with black trim, then gets Saturn as the sig. Saturn also does not receive the Moon by any of major dignities. So the Moon neither helps nor harms any sig.

If one had played in blue and it one was the home fave, then according to what I have observed, the chart shows bad prospects for jupiterian team.

The Sun, the sig in Capricorn, fall of Jupiter, who ruled the hour and day. It might be considered as a slight debility but not as such if it was vice versa - Jupiter were the sig. ASC is the starting point, footing for any chart and then your planet must be strong. It is more worse if the lord of ASC corrupts the sig (as it was Everton - Bolton) than the sig being corrupted by the lord of hour, in this case Jupiter (Sun in the fall of Jupiter).

Assigning Venus as the sig to Southport is a precarious business, then Southport should have won on account of her being the only angular planet in the chart.

All considered I would expect Cambridge to win, but Southport should have scored which was not the case.

May be Cambridge played in their home kit (blue), I was unable to find any videos or photos. Then the clue is the sect luminary in detriment of Jupiter, Gemini.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 587

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cambridge's home kit is yellow and black:

http://www.cambridge-united.co.uk/page/Gallery/0,,10423~2558980,00.html

Didn't you say that if a significator has not-reception with the sect light, then that is bad for that significator? The Sun is in the Moon's detriment. Plus the Sun is in not-reception with his dispositor while Saturn rules the Sun.

So your hierarchy is Asc => Sect light => Hour Lord => Lot of Fortune?
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