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Hi Margherita,

I edited my last post with additional comments so you might want to read it again.
Which are the significators of the temperament for Lilly?

The ruler of Ascendant and the Moon.
Yes I dont have a problem agreeing there is continuity to temperament analysis in that respect.

My point isn't specifically about temperament. I am raising the issue that Ptolemy appears to regard the humoural qualities of the zodiac signs in a quite different way to later medieval tradition. That does come into temperament analysis too though. In addition there is no reference to the elements in Ptolemy. Valens appears to be our first astrological source linking the four elements to the triplicities and individual signs.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Happy New Year everyone when it comes!
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My new year resolution? To try to stick to forum thread topics more closely! Although these tangents can be fun.

Wishing you all a peaceful and bright new year.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Mark wrote: I am raising the issue that Ptolemy appears to regard the humoural qualities of the zodiac signs in a quite different way to later medieval tradition.
Mark
So what? Temperament is given by the qualities of the planets ruling Asc and Moon.

I know Lilly determines qualities from signs, but in effect this is just in the example at the end of the book, not in the first part when he explains the method and arranges in a table Ptolemy words.

Why? Obviously that's my idea, so I have no quote....Because it's more painful to evaluate every single factor than quickly put a cross under the quality of the zodiacal sign.


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margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

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There was a lot of confusion in my understanding of sect before time couple years ago, when I?ve read simple definition of sect in Wikipedia, something like:
?In day chart Saturn and Jupiter considered being in sect, in night chart Mars and Venus are in sect?. Not much complication by being above or below horizon.
Now those couple years of calm and serenity are broken again, by reading this thread.
In my chart Venus is very strong in Taurus in 7th, but oriental and above horizon in day chart. Unfortunately I?m not a sex-symbol of cinematography (as was described in some previous post), dealing with regular architectural profession, where beside of Venus Saturn is also significator.
And with Saturn again, it?s in own sign in day chart, oriental to Sun, but in 4th below horizon in diurnal chart.
My question, is being out of sect so serious problem that can even undermine essential and accidental planet?s dignity?

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Yuriy wrote:My question, is being out of sect so serious problem that can even undermine essential and accidental planet?s dignity?
No, absolutely not!

IMO sect is one vote among many that will assist [me] in delineating a chart; no single element of analysis can undermine the overall dignities in a chart.


james

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Yuriy wrote:
My question, is being out of sect so serious problem that can even undermine essential and accidental planet?s dignity?
As I am sure you are aware chart delineation often involves the synthesis of numerous and sometimes contradictory factors in a chart.

How important you evaluate sect as a chart factor depends on your orientation as an astrologer. Historically, I think it fair to say that sect is very important in hellenistic astrology but its influence diminishes significantly in medieval and renaissance astrology. With that decline went some of the basic understanding that went with it. Hence by Lilly's time sect is a very minor consideration in chart analysis. Look at his point scoring system.

So perhaps the the more important question is what is your alignment as an astrologer?

I personally prefer the hellenistic approach on many issues and certainly in regards sect. However a planet which is strongly dignified by sign placement cannot lose that status due to being out of sect. Some hellenistic astrologers did definitely suggest though that a planet would be less effective for the native in its manifestation if it fell out of sect. Even then though there were gradations which could provide some mitigation. The basic factor was whether the chart was night or day but other considerations could amplify or mitigate this. It is perhaps more helpful to regard sect as changing the way a planet operates in a chart. In that sense its more subtle than seeing sect as about strength or weakness. Plus , you can really only properly consider this by studying the whole chart. Worrying about one or two out of sect planets in your chart makes no sense. It is far better to try to understand what the specific sect placement of any planet may mean in terms of how it will express itself in the native's life.

I have taken the liberty of quoting a section of Curtis Manwaring's website which has some delineations of planets in signs and houses from a hellenistic perspective which are very useful as an introduction to this subject:
Venus in Taurus
Venus is in its own house here and is therefore more able to administer to issues involving love, money, pleasure, artistic expression, and material luxuries because the cosmic soul perceives clearly her presence in this sign and her asking for these things for the native on his/her behalf. This sign also makes all things, including those above, more permanent and lasting. For this reason, a lasting love and financial security is especially important for the natives. They are loyal and perservering, but can also be possessive and jealous. They find committment to a single relationship much easier than most people.

In a diurnal chart, Venus is more active because of the heat and dryness of the daytime counteract her naturally cool and moist nature. The native is therefore more inclined to actively seek pleasure and situations that will enhance security, financial and otherwise. In the past it was seen as more socially acceptable to wait for things of this nature to come to you, else you were considered a hedonist or were too "foreward", etc... This is especially true if Venus was rising before the Sun on the morning of the natives birth. This Venus has a special name: 'Phosphorous" which in Greek "phos" means "light" which is where we get the term "photons" from. The bible calls the same "lucifer" which means especially translucent and brilliant. The danger hinted at here is that too much vanity leads to pride and then a downfall which in this case will most likely take the form of social ostracization. This is more likely yet if Mars happens to be in Taurus, Leo, Scorpio or Aquarius (solid signs).

In a nocturnal chart, the cool and moist nature of Venus is amplified by the cool and moist of night, especially if Venus was visible in the evening of birth after sunset. This has the effect of multiplying the positive and negative effects of Venus in this sign. There will usually be more security and happiness unless Saturn happens to be in one fixed/solid signs. Along with it there is increased dependency and lack of willingness to go after what one wants, though normally this position is very fortunate for marriage, finance and artistic expression, especially if Taurus should be one of the signs possessing a pivotal house with respect to the ascendant.
Curtis has delineated every planet by the opposing sect in each sign and house placement. Have some fun checking out your chart!

http://www.zodiac-x-files.com/signs/taurus-venus.html

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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first off - mark thanks for the pic of the cat up higher.. that was fun!

2ndly - thanks for the link to curtis manwaring.. the site is awesome!

3rd - i have venus in taurus setting in a nocturnal chart, so i really enjoyed the small bit that you did share here and will study what curtis has to say more fully..

i did want to mention what seems to be the importance of how the nocturnal or diurnal planets help one another, once sect has been defined as either a nocturnal or diurnal chart... it seems to me that if nocturnal, the moon can be assisted by mars and venus placement, or not depending on their place in the chart... the same takes place in a diurnal chart with the sun being assisted by jupiter or saturn in either a favourable manner, or not.. i am getting this from my reading though and it might be mostly from joseph cranes book that i got this.. it is another interesting concept to add to the multi layered dynamic of sect..

thanks mark!
james

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Thank you Jerd and thank you Mark a lot for so profound reference to Venus in Taurus description.
I was told at other forum that oriental status of Venus in diurnal chart, especially in 7th makes Venus mostly oppose to it?s natural qualities, being more dry and hot. That?s perhaps why I?m not exactly artist professionally, rather being designer which dealing with metal, concrete and stone in constructions.
Another point is how being out of sect/ oppose natural qualities effects health issues. With Libra AC such problems as gout and kidney stone are not rare, and I?ve experienced those for recent years (Venus ruling kidney).

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I remember at some traditional astrology forum we were reviewing technique which allows to find out if AC ruler planet is "friendly" to AC itself.
For instance, my Libra AC ruled by very hot and dry Venus, in Taurus in 7th, oriental diurnal chart.
But if to sum total AC degree qualities it comes to review very strong Saturn(culminates and triplicity), which is very cold and moist in Aquarius in 4th (despite of air sign, I've calculated total points, base on position, aspects, etc.). And Saturn in close aspect to AC(while no aspect of Venus). And combining other planets influence on AC it comes to moderately cold and moist.
So, the point is, if planer ruling AC by qualities opposite to AC qualities than Planet isn't friendly to native's health, like in my case hot-dry Venus to cold-moist AC.
Is anybody agrees with this method?

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Happy New year to you too!

Can I just check something?

You said earlier:
For instance, my Libra AC ruled by very hot and dry Venus, in Taurus in 7th, oriental diurnal chart
Did you really mean Venus in Aries? Or is Venus in the 7th in Taurus what the quadrant system you use gives you? Venus in Aries certainly would be very hot and dry with the other factors you mentioned. However, placement in Taurus provides some degree of mitigation as a cool and dry sign.

It would useful to know exactly what phase Venus is in. Terms like 'oriental' are really only a basic guideline. Is it combust or free of beams? Direct or retrograde? How many degrees from the sun?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Mark wrote:Happy New year to you too!

Can I just check something?

You said earlier:
For instance, my Libra AC ruled by very hot and dry Venus, in Taurus in 7th, oriental diurnal chart
Did you really mean Venus in Aries? Or is Venus in the 7th in Taurus what the quadrant system you use gives you? Venus in Aries certainly would be very hot and dry with the other factors you mentioned. However, placement in Taurus provides some degree of mitigation as a cool and dry sign.

It would useful to know exactly what phase Venus is in. Terms like 'oriental' are really only a basic guideline. Is it combust or free of beams? Direct or retrograde? How many degrees from the sun?

Mark
Well, may be I used wrong scale for points calculation (should be more for being in own sign?). But second quadrant hot and dry, oriental to Sun increase these qualities too.
I've followed ones suggested by Frawley calculation, based on Lilli's points.
Venus direct at 2Taurus, Sun art 29Taurus - no sun beams.
Moon in Aries at DC, may be by culminating in Taurus effects Venus that way?