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New Greek government’s inauguration chart
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geo



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 119
Location: Athens, Greece

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:00 pm    Post subject: New Greek government’s inauguration chart Reply with quote

From today on Greece has a new (temporal) government, occurred as a unity between the 2 major parties.



It attracted my attention, the fact that the inauguration was postponed for 2 hours later than originally announced. Casting down the chart, you can’t avoid thinking astrology might have had a little part on this: ASC ruler, mars at 0,12 virgo tightly conjunct Regulus, MC ruler, Saturn at 23,37 Libra conjunct Spica, 7H ruler, Venus, as well as 4H ruler, Moon, just leaving conjunction to Antares and Algol respectively. All angles’ rulers in conjunction to the brightest stars! Quite strange, isn’t it?

As we all down here need some hope, I instantly regarded the ASC and MC rulers right on the royal stars as a sign of protection, but then again, what about the MC ruler, Saturn, fully exalted and protected right on the 7H cusp? Isn’t it the same situation, as being going on for 2 years now, with Others (IMF, EU, ECB) (7H) ruling the government (10H)? Or is a simple mark of the “unity” (7H) substance of it? Sun (the King) is also placed in the house of “Others” in a separating opposition to the moon (common people). Another thing to notice is the angles on cardinal signs, which means much decision making.
Of course I have no idea if a government’s chart should be read as a nation’s chart, so forgive my ignorance. Is the government 1H or 10H? Could it be that the 10H is the Prime Minister? (in which case you should know that the new PM actually is libra!)

I am looking forward to your suggestions, as well as a reply to a question I’ve been having for a long time now: when is a government’s chart being born in general? Is it the elections or the inauguration day?

greetings,
geo
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi geo,

Thanks very much for posting this.

Can I just clarify when the 4.00pm time is for? Is it for the start or end of the ceremony? Do you have an online source? I haven't really followed this story closely but I think the inauguration was for the new Greek Prime Minister Lucas Papademos and his administration? I was surprised how religious the ceremony looked with Greek Orthodox priests carrying it out and the Prime Minister taking an oath of office from them. It looked more like a coronation than just an inauguration! Greece is clearly still a very religious country.



Your right the chart is loaded with fixed stars! Keep in mind though that royal stars like Antares and Regulus although powerful can indicate both highs and dramatic falls from power. The WWII British Prime Minister Winston Churchill had several of these stars prominent in his natal chart (Moon on Regulus, Sun on Antares , Jupiter on Spica) and his career was neither untroubled or a smooth rise to the top.

Quote:
Of course I have no idea if a government’s chart should be read as a nation’s chart, so forgive my ignorance. Is the government 1H or 10H? Could it be that the 10H is the Prime Minister? (in which case you should know that the new PM actually is libra!)


Good point. Most national charts are judged with the leader 10H. A government chart is narrower in focus but I would tend to follow the same approach. We have Lord 10 (Saturn) in Libra on the benefic fixed star Spica. The moon is the traditional symbol of the people and here is forming a whole sign trine to the MC. The Moon is exalted in Taurus.

Taking a general look at the chart I note the angles of the chart are all cardinal and the MC ruler falls in a cardinal sign. Generally, cardinal signs indicates things of short duration. I wonder how long this coalition government can hold together? One mitigation is the fact Saturn is the MC ruler which adds to staying power.

Much less promising though is that the Moon here rules H4 the traditional house of political opposition. The moon is on Algol which possibly indicates the mounting anger, despair, and blind fury of the populace against the austerity measures. The Moon is by some definitions void of course as it perfects no aspect in Taurus. However, I prefer the more traditional defintion of VOC which considers aspects across the sign boundary if they are in orb.

The Moon here applies to a square of Mars across the sign boundary. The ASC is also a traditional indicator of public mood or national will. Mars is the H1 ruler. What could this indicate? Here Lord 10 (Saturn) is in exact opposition to the ASC. This government was not elected by the Greek people and there will clearly be lots of public opposition to it. Moreover, I think the Moon-Mars square indicates conflict within Greek society not just against the government but by opposing factions. This could very well spill on to the streets in violent protests.

The domicile ruler of the Moon (Venus) is in the 8th house by placidus indicating the mood of fear, and anxiety and sense of loss. Its in aversion to the Moon meaning it literally cannot see the sign it rules by whole sign houses. Venus is also Lord 2 here and again in aversion to H2. Its presence in the 8th house by placidus also indicates the focus on others money and the need for financial assistance from abroad. Venus is in the 9th house by whole sign which also reflects the fact that the fate of the Greek people is now being decided by foreign governments and financial institutions. Jupiter rules H9 and natural significator of wealth falls in H2. This seems a very graphic astrological representation of foreign bail out funding coming to Greece.

Another more positive way of looking at the Moon-Mars square is that Mars rules H8 so it represents the foreign bail out funding assisting the Greek people. However, the fact the Moon has had to cross a sign boundary to perfect this aspect and that it is a square indicates a fundamental restructuring of Greek society is required as part of this assistance. I do wonder how much the Greek people can really take of this savage austerity. Its going to put democratic institutions under great strain.

Quote:

I am looking forward to your suggestions, as well as a reply to a question I’ve been having for a long time now: when is a government’s chart being born in general? Is it the elections or the inauguration day?


Excellent question. I would suggest its more logical to go with an inuaguration or some kind of similar ceremony representing the passing over of power than simply winning the election. The election is the political victory but there needs to be a legal, constitutional recognition of this by the state as a whole. In much of Europe where coalitions are the norm the government can change without an election anyway. Looking back at the historical roots of this medieval astrologers would cast a chart for the coronation of a King as the chart for their reign.

Here in Britain the the former PM goes to the Queen to tender their resignation and the new PM meets the Queen to 'kiss hands'. Regarding the current administration of President Barack Obama there was a lot of debate on Skyscript some years back whether Obama became President at 12:00 noon (as laid out in the constitution) or when he took his oath of office. You really need to study the specific constitutional arrangements in each country.

This article by Deborah Houlding is a very useful introduction to mundane astrology. It discusses ingress charts but the same significations can be used for national and government charts.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ingresses.html

Mark
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geo



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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Location: Athens, Greece

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, first of all thank you for your reply!
Quote:
Much less promising though is that the Moon here rules H4 the traditional house of political opposition. The moon is on Algol which possibly indicates the mounting anger, despair, and blind fury of the populace against the austerity measures. The Moon is by some definitions void of course as it perfects no aspect in Taurus. However, I prefer the more traditional defintion of VOC which considers aspects across the sign boundary if they are in orb.
The Moon here applies to a square of Mars across the sign boundary. The ASC is also a traditional indicator of public mood or national will. Mars is the H1 ruler. What could this indicate? Here Lord 10 (Saturn) is in exact opposition to the ASC. This government was not elected by the Greek people and there will clearly be lots of public opposition to it. Moreover, I think the Moon-Mars square indicates conflict within Greek society not just against the government but by opposing factions. This could very well spill on to the streets in violent protests.

It’s very interesting what you say. Due to the nature of this unity government, political opposition is only left to the left parties and people themselves (4H ruled by the moon), but in a square to 1H ruler as the nation itself, that’s trouble indeed. in the past months, with media provocating government excuse that "it's greeks' fault", a strange feeling in everyday life has been developped, with more and more angered, feared people acusing each other for nothing. It reminds much of "Asterix and the Roman Agent", if you're familiar with that comic.
Quote:
I was surprised how religious the ceremony looked with Greek Orthodox priests carrying it out and the Prime Minister taking an oath of office from them. It looked more like a coronation than just an inauguration! Greece is clearly still a very religious country.

Religion was part of Greeks identity to different themselves from ottoman turks, when under the ottoman empire, had its part during the 1821 independence war, and therefore was respected and mentioned in the first lines of the first constitution of the First Hellenic Republic. That explains its presence by the government’s oath. I suppose it’s the equivalent to the royal family in UK, as you also said. It’s rather tradition, not as much religion. Especially the late archbishop keeps a much lower profile in politics in contrast to the previous one.
Quote:
Can I just clarify when the 4.00pm time is for? Is it for the start or end of the ceremony? Do you have an online source? I haven't really followed this story closely but I think the inauguration was for the new Greek Prime Minister Lucas Papademos and his administration?

The ceremony actually started at 4pm, and the PM oath didn’t last more than 5-10 minutes. Then the cabinet proceeded to take their oath altogether, but that I don’t really know how long it lasted cause I stopped watching..
I think 4pm is the appropriate time to it, cause, in my opinion, in all similar ceremonies (weddings etc), it is the pre-announced time the one captured in our universal mind as a birth time.

Since this discussion aroused my curiosity further, I casted down all charts for elections and inaugurations from 1996 till present. Elections are normally held on Sundays, and the new government’s oath is usually held 3 days later, that’s Wednesdays (which fits perfect to the country’s Mercury-ruled ASC!)Of course, there is a question on what time should you use for the elections. Would you take 12.00am or 7.00pm (= when voting stops in Greece) when –with nowdays technology- you have the first exit-poll results?
For Gov 1996 & 2000 I found no inauguration time, but I suppose it should be like the others, held at 11.00am. The interesting thing to see is that no PM from 1996 on has been popular:

25 sep 1996: MC ruler (sun) in libra – fall
13 apr 2000: MC ruler (Jupiter) in Taurus - tightly conjuncting mars&Saturn (it was under Simitis government and under large austerity measures that Greece entered eurozone)
10 mar 2004: MC ruler (Saturn) in cancer – fall
19 sep 2007: MC tightly conjunct Saturn & SN
07 oct 2009: MC ruler (mercury) in domicile sign Virgo in 10H (there was much hope on him that time, indeed) but tightly conjunct Saturn opp Uranus (4H) *PM was sworn a day earlier in his office (Obama style) but the planets are same

And here is today:
11 nov 2011: MC ruler (saturn) exalted in Libra on bright star Spica. New PM Papademos has already been much appreciated by the “Others” – (ruler in 7H) (Merkel etc). it was also felt as a relief in here: shops and restaurants and bars were busy again yesterday as they hadn’t been for months now: “we still have money, let’s spend some before we collapse” Exaltation for sure.

I also had a look at the elections’ charts, in which the moon tells it all:

22 sep 1996: Moon in Capricorn (detriment) conjunct Neptune
09 apr 2000: Moon in Gemini (actually, Greece’s natal one)
07 mar 2004: Full moon in Virgo
16 sep 2007: Moon in Scorpio (fall)
04 oct 2009: Full moon in Aries

I really wonder who’s being paid to pick up those dates! Shocked
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi geo,

geo wrote:
Quote:
Of course, there is a question on what time should you use for the elections. Would you take 12.00am or 7.00pm (= when voting stops in Greece) when –with nowdays technology- you have the first exit-poll results?


I remember debating this with Andrew Bevan a few years ago on a thread on Skyscript discussing the Norwegian elections. At the time I was in favour of a chart for the opening of polls. I was proposing it was rather like the chart for the start of a contest like a football match or other sport. However, Andrew's view was that the end of poll chart equals the final outcome of the contest. It was nothing to do with exit polls. Rather the time of the actual end of the election.

The 'killer argument' was probably the point that voting by post in many countries now takes place before the polling day so it cannot be presented as the start of the contest. Mind you in the Australian elections last year postal votes were coming in after polling day!

In some countries the political contest begins when the election date is set by the incumbent adminsitration. This is not the case when the election date follows a fixed timetable.

I now consider the close of polls chart more important. However, I think its important to look at the transits throughout the whole day of polling. Especially, the position of the Moon and its aspects and sign position.

geo wrote:
Quote:
the 1821 independence war, and therefore was respected and mentioned in the first lines of the first constitution of the First Hellenic Republic


Can I ask you about the national chart for Greece? I have seen so many competing charts its quite bewildering. I was using a chart for the Kingdom of Greece but I am thinking the chart for the 3rd Greek republic should instead be used. Confused

July 24, 1974, 4:00 am EET

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/countries/greece.php

Mark
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geo



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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Location: Athens, Greece

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark!

Quote:
Can I ask you about the national chart for Greece? I have seen so many competing charts its quite bewildering. I was using a chart for the Kingdom of Greece but I am thinking the chart for the 3rd Greek republic should instead be used.


There has been much debating on this in greek forums as well, and, not being an expert in astrology, I was also convinced that the chart that fited more greek mentality is the one of February 3, 1830, when the sovereignty of Greece was confirmed in a London Protocol.

The debate was more about whether other independence declaration times should be used instead, not about the 3rd Greek republic. So, to be honest, I had never checked on July 24, 1974, 4:00 am EET until today, after your suggestion.

I fear this chart gives a good explanation of our modern society's problems Confused
ASC ruler = moon (excess of populism in our late history..) tightly conjunct Pluto in 4H (love & hate relationship to State?) in libra (Nouveau riche - wannabe middle class) *too much of populism (3 planets in cancer, aspected by moon from 4H + 4H ruler, mercury, on ASC..) but also much conservatism: a bad saturn (in detriment) on ASc
saturn also stands for both the "others" and their money: right on 1st H cusp, money surely came to us!
How do you see 10H ruler, jupiter, in domicile, Rx & at the bendings?? Unstable governers?
[You should know though that recent Greece's most emblematic PM was Andreas Papandreou under the sign of aquarious, while the majority after him are under mercury - in these sence, they fit more 1st chart]
What both charts do share in common however is the NN quality. In first one it's in virgo, in the other one in 6th house, both shouting the same thing: stop complaining please and back to work!

OF course it's not hard to see how much the 2nd chart is afflicted by the Pluto & Uranus transits of crisis. Something is gonna definately die. Let it be the indifference and the social loafing.

greetings,
Georgia
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi geo,

Here another article by Thomas Gazis. He strongly advocates the 1822 start and has proposed a rectified time of 10:00am giving a Pisces ascendant.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrology-articles/greece-natal-chart.php

I really, haven't studied this subject enough to have a firm view. Still the start of the French Fifth Republic is commonly used used as the chart for modern France so I dont see why a modern chart for Greece (1974) should also not be taken into consideration.

However, its not possible to link that chart to a new constitution. Greece has been through numerous constitutions since 1822. The current constitution stems from 1975. It has subsequently been amended 3 times already (1986, 2001 and in 2008). However the 1975 constitution represents a new legal settlement in Greece following the restoration of democracy in 1974. I will take a look later at a chart for the 1975 Greek constitution as an alternative modern chart too. In my experience constitutional charts are very reliable as national charts.

http://www.greeceindex.com/political-system/greek_constitution.html



Mark
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Dione T



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Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geo wrote:
1. It’s rather tradition, not as much religion.

2. Would you take 12.00am or 7.00pm (= when voting stops in Greece) when –with nowdays technology- you have the first exit-poll results?

1. Quite so.

2. INception - in my opinion - the start of an event will be the moment we want to cast for. Its birth rather than its conclusion.
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Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
geo wrote:
1. It’s rather tradition, not as much religion.

Dion wrote:
1. Quite so.


Since my initial reply to geo I have had time to look into this. What I have found is quite disconcerting. I therefore think this ritual reflects much more than just a quaint tradition. It reflects the enshrined position of the Greek Orthodox Church. This is laid out explicitly in article 3 of the Greek constitution. Others faiths are banned from proselytizing in Greece. In fact its a criminal offence! There is state funding and tax breaks for the Greek Orthodox Church and discrimination against other faiths. There is also official obstruction on opening houses of worship which are non-orthodox. Hence no permits have been awarded since 2006. Without these permits, religious groups are not recognized as religions and are unable to own and manage property and other assets or establish and operate a new place of worship.

The US State department do an excellent religious freedom report for each country annually. Take time to read the whole report. I found parts of it quite shocking considering this is a EU country. Sad

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2010/148940.htm
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geo



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Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dione T hi!
I had a look at your site and accidentally saw your analysis on greek elections 2009 - it was a good mundane lesson to me!
Seeing this 2 years later, your picking up 7.00am seems to fit the situation perfect..
By the way, what do you think on new government's chart? Saturn stands for both PM (10H) and its cabinet (11H) exalted in libra, conjuncting Spica, but opposing ASC??

Mark hi, too

Quote:
Others faiths are banned from proselytizing in Greece and there is official obstruction on opening houses of worship which are non-orthodox.


You are absolutely right on this. It's unfair that it took so long for a decision to be taken that allows the creation of a mosque in Athens, while there are orthodox churches in most places where there is greek community.
Do have in mind though, that muslim religion is a sensitive matter in our country, closely related to ottoman empire and the bad relations to our neighbour country (cyprus 1974).
In case you also don't know, greece has been accepting much too much illegal immigrants from middle east, and according to EU protocols, is unable to let them go up to the northern rich countries (cause these people only want job to feed their families, but as you know, no money-no jobs down here!) As you might assume for yourself, this arouses much xenophobia and racism, especially now with all these problems we have. Talking about the non-existence of a mosque in greece sounds a luxury at these times..

This is an astrology site, i wish you didn't go on judging people, nations or societies like this, it's too damn serious. Especially if you are lacking own experience or own memory about own country.

g
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Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dion T wrote:
Quote:
2. INception - in my opinion - the start of an event will be the moment we want to cast for. Its birth rather than its conclusion.


I agree that is the normal position in astrology whether nativity, organization etc. However, I think this is a unique case. In particular the opening of polls is not the actual inception of the polling process if postal voting starts before it. That is why we need to consider the close of poll. However, it would make a good discussion for a thread of its own.

Mark
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Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geo wrote:
Quote:
This is an astrology site, i wish you didn't go on judging people, nations or societies like this, it's too damn serious. Especially if you are lacking own experience or own memory about own country.


I understand full well there is a historical and contemporary context to this issue. I should state though that these problems dont just relate to Muslims but also concern other Christian denominations and other faiths. However, I accept your point about the focus of the site being astrology not religion so I will refrain from making any further personal comments on this subject here.

Mark
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Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the Solar Return for the 1974 chart was most revealing.

Gemini rises (12th house in the 1974 chart). Mars on the ASC and Neptune on the MC. Mars conj the South Node. Mercury (ASC ruler) applying to opposition of Neptune across the sign boundary.


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Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The charts for many countries are based on a new constitution coming into force. ie USA (1789), Germany (1949), France (1958). I therefore thought it was worth researching a similar chart for Greece. The current constitution for Greece dates from 11th June 1975. It was apparently 'promulgated' that day. That often refers to an official document being issued bringing the constitution into force. However, I have worked on the assumption the constitution came into force at 00:00 hours. I dont read Greek so if anyone else finds out something else do post your comment.

I would be interested to know. Have any Greek astrologers thought of this chart and tried it out?

I have displayed the chart with transits for the 11th of November with the inauguration of the new Greek government.

Here is the chart for the 1975 constitution with transits on the outer wheel. The Cancer Moon has been affected by the Pluto opposition and Uranus moving into Aries squaring it. Uranus has also been opposing the radix Pluto in Aries. Transiting Pluto is squaring the radix Pluto. The transiting nodes have been crossing the Gemini Sun/Mercury in the chart. Mars (MC ruler) is squaring the radix nodes. Tr Sun trine radix Saturn.



Mark
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geo



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Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think occupying ourselves with Greece's charts, we're missing the point.
Italy following Greece with another banker as leader, i fear 11/11/2011 4.00pm EET might be the birthchart of something that extends far away from Greece small borders: a global bank goverment

Do take the time to read the following article -it's in french, but the second one it's an english translation of it I found:

http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2011/11/14/goldman-sachs-le-trait-d-union-entre-mario-draghi-mario-monti-et-lucas-papademos_1603675_3214.html

http://hellasfrappe.blogspot.com/2011/11/greece-italy-ecb-goldman-sachs.html

also this prophetic article
http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/article/202051-goldman-sachs-international-web

Georgia
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Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think occupying ourselves with Greece's charts, we're missing the point
.

Thanks for the articles. Very revealing. I dont think focusing on Greek charts is missing the point though. Its simply a different point from the one you are seeking to introduce to the thread. The thread was created to discuss the new Greek government. It therefore is a logical progression to look at the meta charts for Greece.

Naturally, as you point out there is much larger geo-political context to all this. Its deeply ironic that we have an economic crisis which had it origins in profligate banking practices yet we are being told by the media and the markets that only bankers can sort this mess out. Confused Its a worrying development for democracy. However, I think these issues are more appropriately discussed on another thread.

We have been discussing the effects of the crisis across Europe.Hence we have started to discuss the German national chart(s) as Germany is in many respects the lynchpin in this crisis.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6387

Also I opened a thread on the future of the Euro some time ago which you might like to contribute to.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6316

Alternatively, you are welcome to open a fresh thread yourself.

I suppose the issue for Greeks is is it better to endure long term austerity for the forseeable future in the Euro or accept the shock of default and leaving the Euro. This will undoubtably have short term chaotic consequences for Greeks but it will at least allow devaluation. Its a question of which is the real lesser of two evils.

Mark
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