Exercise: when is she going to give birth?

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Hi everyone,

I thought I would give you a horary chart to practice on.

Around a year ago, my cousin?s wife (let?s call her Mrs P.) was about 8-9 months pregnant. She was due any day. At the time, I was in Paris for a visa application and didn?t know if we (my mom and I) should stay in Paris until Mrs P. gave birth or if we should just go straight home after I was done (We lived a 5 hour drive away from Paris). My mom asked: "when is she going to give birth?"

The question was asked on the 4th of July 2014,
in Paris, France (2e20, 48n52)
at 5:33pm
Asc. Scorpio 19?21? Moon Libra 2?57? (Tropical Zodiac)

If you?re tempted, you can try to describe the querent, find the date of the delivery or anything else you think noteworthy surrounding the event.
Oh and, I know this is not the question but if you?d like to try and find the sex of the baby, feel free. (Mr & Mrs P. had kept secret the sex of the child).

I?m thinking of giving you the answer on Wednesday the 14th? (Might be around the 15th if you?re in Europe)

Let me know if something is unclear.
Until then, have a great week!

Morgan

Edit by Deb - here is the chart, using Janus:
Image

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Hello Morgan,

Thanks for your chart ,I love exercises.

Could you explain what sort of the relationship or kinship between your mom and your cousin or cousin's wife? Because it seems necessarily turning the chart. I am confused it.

Thank you.

Best wishes

Ming

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Hi Morgan,

I've inserted a copy of the chart into your post - good idea to wait until 15th before posting the outcome. I echo Ming's question about the signification approach you took to this chart - did you assign the ascendant to your mother and then locate Mrs P by her relationship to the querent, or did you take a different approach?

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Hi Ming, Hi Deb,

Thank you Deb for inserting the chart!
Very good question! I?m sorry, I should?ve explained a bit more: So, Mrs P. is my mom?s nephew?s wife.
(Basically: My mom has a sister who has two children. One of the two children is a boy, who is married to Mrs P.)

Little warning! Stop reading here if you want to try and work the houses on your own. Below I?ll describe my approach for the houses (without giving you the answer to the chart).

????

At the time, I wasn?t sure how to approach the chart.
I started to turn houses: My mom is the Asc., her sister is the radical 3rd. Her sister?s son is the radical 7th (5th from the 3rd), and the son's spouse is then the radical Asc. (7th from the 7th). Still following me?
-When I saw that, I first thought it was an awful lot of turning.
-Second, the physical/behavioral description did not really match, and the story told by the chart did not seem accurate either.
-Third, whether we take the Asc. or the 7th, Mrs P.?s planet and the one of the child to come were the same (Mars if the radical Asc., Venus if we take the 7th). I do not use outer planets (or barely) so Uranus in the 5th was of no use to me but, having Mars in the 11th (5th from the 7th) could be interesting to get more information about the timing and/or the gender of the child.

To conclude (and without spoiling anything if you want to describe the characters a bit), I used the 7th. I thought it made more sense for the querent?s significator to be in Mrs P.?s house of children (Mars in the 11th; so the 5th from the 7th), which was describing my mom?s interest in the question. And for Mrs P. to be in her own house (Venus in the 7th. She had to stay at home because she was supposed to give birth very soon and wanted to do so at home).

I hope this helps :D

If things are still a bit unclear, let me know and I'll try to explain it differently. Otherwise, have fun interpreting!

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Hello Morgan,

Thank you.

I used the Scorpio ascendent as Mrs P.

Her physical at the time when the question was asked.

Fat ( an expectant mother ), moderate or fair stature, pale complexion, but beautiful face.

The delivery date and time.

8th or 13th of July , or any day between them and it might be in the morning or daytime.

Sex of the baby.

Male.

I hope I'm not horribly wrong. This is my third time for judging when is going to give birth. At the previous two cases I made wrong answers. It needs more practices, needn't it?

Thank you for your case again and looking forward to the answer.

Ming
Last edited by Wei on Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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I'll come back to the timing later, but have to say that with Saturn retrograde on the ascendant, if this was my horary, I would judge that as an indication that it is not a good idea for the querent to hang around in Paris awaiting the birth. Mars in 5th (and ruling radical 5th) made me initially think it would be a boy, but since that is the querent's significator and its placement in the 5th shows her interest in the matter asked about, I'm tempted to give that less consideration than the fact that Moon is disposed by Venus and applying to it from the 5th cusp. Of course, Venus is in Gemini, so if she has twins, I'll go for one girl and one boy :)

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Morgan - do you have details of Mrs P's natal chart - I'd normally try to consider that if possible. Also, when you do reveal the outcome, can you give the date of birth only at first - and let's see if it is possible to determine the actual time, once we've narrowed that detail down.

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The further we move from the main crux of anxiety or concern or the main place we need guidance from a horary, the less certain I am on what the horary describes.

Morgan I'm struggling to understand where the urgency or need is coming from. Am I right in saying that you lived 5 hours from Paris and your cousin was in Paris or due to give birth in a Parisian hospital and so you wondered should you stay put because the birth was probably pretty soon, or if you should go home because it wasn't soon enough?

Or is it that you were in Paris and your cousin, who lives near you, was due soon and you wanted to stay in Paris but didn't want to miss being there for your cousin's pregnancy and so wanted to know if you had more time in Paris or if you ought to return home?

I'm assuming the first, but I really would like to clarify.

Deb already mentioned Saturn on the ascendant but really this is one of the only areas I'd feel comfortable commenting on until I knew more which suggests to me some delays or travel problems in staying put where you are.

Also to reiterate what others have said, could you provide some illumination on how you chose significators? Were you and your mother of the same mind about what you wanted to do? The mother asked the question but presumably it affects you too, so is it a case that you and your mother were aligned or is it that really you had no stake in the matter, and so the querent can be said to be the mother, and if so what way do you see the relationship between querent and quesited? Or ought we to take you as the querent as much as the mother?

I wonder because of course Saturn is the ruler of the third, which apart from signifying travel of the kind you would need to get home, it may also signify cousins. Either way I'm inclined to see these family members as third house, but it would be worthwhile understanding how you assigned significators here as it's your chart.

Really the urgency of the chart seems to be more about should we stay here or go home, and less about the sex of the child etc. so I'd feel less comfortable talking about that, and even when the mother asks when will she give birth, it's really still just about should we stay put or not.

I'll reserve the right to change my view on this when I understand better the circumstances and the signification :D but when I looked at the chart I found Saturn on the ascendant very compelling, as Lord 3 being either cousins or travel. Deb said this suggests you shouldn't wait around there for long, but actually when I looked at it I wondered more about whether you would be stuck in Paris either intentionally or not. With the Moon applying to the Sun in 10?, and presuming the Sun not ruling any house (you don't list a house system and I'm not sure what one Deb chose), I'll take the Sun more broadly rather than signifying a house. If I had to guess a sex, I'd therefore choose male, especially when the Moon in a masculine sign. 10? could be symbolic of the number of days, but it could also be by real time transit in which case it would be within 24 hours.

I'm inclined to think that one way or another you were stuck in Paris but I'd like to know if it's Paris you wanted to be in because you wanted to be there for the child who was due to be born in Paris, or if it's not where you wanted to be as you wanted to be home where the child was due to be born.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

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Hi Everyone,

Ming: thank you for your reply. Do not worry about your answer. I think I understand your fears, I'm kind of the same, always worried I'll say something wrong. But we have to remember that it is important to try. Practice makes perfect they say! :D

Deb: Thanks for your reply, I?ll ask for the birth data of Mrs P. and will keep you updated. As for the reveal, no problem. I?ll start by revealing the date of birth only.

Paul: Thank you also for your message. For the houses, Regiommontanus is used (Deb used the same system on the chart if I?m not mistaken).
Sorry if I wasn?t clear, I?ll try to explain a bit more:
So, my aunt and my cousin?s family all live in Paris.
You are right when you say that we were wondering if we should stay longer (meaning until Mrs P. gives birth) or if we should just go home. Also, yes, I did live 5 hours from Paris.
Nothing was really urgent per se. The thing was, I had to be in Paris around the same time Mrs P. could have her baby (in Paris too then). I had to be there between the 1st of July and July 10th for my visa interview and other paperwork.

Our reasoning was:
-if she would have the baby around the 10th we would stay a bit longer in Paris to see the mom and baby and then go home.

But, on the other hand, we were also thinking:
-my dad was still in the South of France waiting for us.
-if my interview was a success, I would have to go back to my parent's (5 hours away), get my stuff in order and get ready to leave the country soon.
-the date grew close to the 14th of July (French National Day) and we didn?t want my dad to celebrate all alone.

Regarding the wording of the question: I didn?t like the idea of asking a "Should we or should I" type of question (because I was not sure how to interpret it). So it seemed more natural to ask when Mrs P. would give birth, since the answer of the date would help us in deciding what to do. Personally, I was more leaning toward going home on the 11th when my mom asked the question, but still I was open for other possibilities. My mom still wanted to know when Mrs P. would give birth (I guess just in case the date was really close).

Regarding Saturn, with retrospect I can link it to several things, but I?m thinking maybe I should wait to tell you what it could have meant. What I will say though is that at the time I considered Saturn as being my mom's sister (we were staying at my mom's sister's place). Like she was weighing on my mom's mind for some reason.

For the choice of significators:
Like I said in the previous post, I took the 7th as Mrs P. I usually take the 1st for the querent, missing people or sick people. The way I turned the houses was just too complicated to my taste.
Also you asked if I was included in the Asc. Well, when I read the chart I actually did not think of me. I thought: "Right, the question is when, my mom is asking so she is the Asc., the quesited is..." etc. I tried to keep it simple (I have a tendency to over-complicate things :? )
So I said mom is 1st and finally I decided to use for Mrs P. 7th (Venus) and for the baby (Venus) but also Mars because he was in the 5th from the 7th.

One last thing, I totally agree when you say that the gender is not important (and was not in the question even), but I just wanted to give a chance at finding out a bit more in the chart that the answer only (see what I was saying about over-complicating things? :D) Maybe it's just me but, I often have difficulty describing people in a chart or events surrounding the question, querent or quesited to make sure that the chart is valid. So I just wanted to let people know that if they wanted to go a little further I could help them validate what they say.

I think that was all...let me know if I forgot something or if I was unclear :)

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Thanks for adding those extra details Morgan - the point about her sister being on your mother's mind helps to make sense of Saturn, as third ruler on the asc. Last night, before reading this, I had wondered if there was more of an element of fear or concern attached to this question than the initial question portrays (because of the placement of Saturn), and without knowing it related to her sister, I wondered if your mother was worried assumed Mars in the derived 5th pointed to the birth needing to be performed by caesarean section, and that this would happen on 10th July when the aspect between Mars and Venus perfected with the Moon making an aspect to the 7th cusp. Now I am not so sure and need to review - I'm away for the weekend but hope to add another comment on Monday.

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Morgan G wrote: Ming: thank you for your reply. Do not worry about your answer. I think I understand your fears, I'm kind of the same, always worried I'll say something wrong. But we have to remember that it is important to try. Practice makes perfect they say! :D
Thank you! Morgan. You made me much easier ! You are so kind and considerate.

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Thanks Morgan for posting this chart I've learnt so much from just trying to interpret it and from the others postings on it too. I do think your Mother my not have been asking the question based on 'when the baby would be born' as it may have been more about her own real need of either wanting to get back to your Father and/or just not wanting to spend too much time with her sister as Saturn is pacing back and forward on the ascendant which is ruling her sisters 3rd house indicating a degree of anxiety about being there and the travel options available of travelling back out of there. I also considered some of the Scorpion characteristics too they are intense, not always saying what they are really thinking, very private preferring their own space but extremely loyal which may have been what was keeping here there longer than she would have preferred if necessary. I think the birth date was the 10th July because it's when Mars (turned 5th) trines Venus (expectant mum & baby) Moon trine 5th cusp, Moon trines Mars & Moon opposing Venus. I also like others don't think it was a straight forward home birth with Mrs P (Venus & baby) entering 8th house and with a debilitated Mars in the turned 5th & Saturn retrograde in the 3rd house of short distance travel possibly urgent journey to hospital due to complications, it's also Mrs P's Mums house & the Querents significator and they both would have been naturally very anxious indicated again by Saturn in retrograde on the Ascendant. I realise I am duplicating a lot of what has already been said in previous posts, however I did get to the same conclusion as Tania with a birth date of the 10th July.