skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Astrolabe vs Arthur Olson et al lawsuit
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> News, Notices, Books, Links
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
jventura



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 294
Location: Portugal

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

handn wrote:
Astrolabe deserve more respectful treatment for their contribution to the field of data collection, no matter how many errors their database may or may not have (I'm not in a position to know since I don't own their relevant software), and I'm not very impressed with what has regularly and from various quarters come across as testosterone-fuelled battling and finger-pointing, in place of mature adults reaching a sensible agreement.


Hi Handn, just to refute your point regarding the quote above: Astrolabe did not contribute anything (at least anything special) for the timezone database. They did buy it, and cheaply I think, from the guys who really did contribute something!
As company, enterprise, group of people, you name it, they didn't add value to this subject. Just money, and not very much as it seems..

To Caesar What Belongs to Caesar… Confused

Regards,
Joćo Ventura
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AloisT



Joined: 19 Oct 2011
Posts: 9
Location: ZĆ¼rich, Switzerland

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

handn wrote:
.. and the fact is that Astrolabe put a lot of work in at the coalface.
....
(I'm not in a position to know since I don't own their relevant software)


It has already been stated that Astrolabe had nothing to do with the collection of timezone history information by former ACS (Astro Communication Services) San Diego, a company founded by Neil Michelsen.

It should be noted that it is a misunderstanding, possibly intended by Astrolabe, that this is about software and 'databases'.

It is not. It is about historical facts (when was daylight saving time in which area, when were timezone changes), and these facts were and are published in book format. Olson & co quoted data from such books, and named the books as a source for these quotes.

Such factual information is not protected by copyright, neither in the US nor in most other parts of the world.

It is worthwile to read the PDF document published yesterday by the Electronic Frontier Foundation, where it moves the court to punish Astrolabe and its lawyer for starting a frivolous and unfunded lawsuit.

The essential arguments are presented strong and clear in this document.

Motion for Sanctions Under Rule 11
https://www.eff.org/sites/default/files/filenode/rule11motionastroalabe.pdf

What is my personal interest in this matter, some people might ask?

Since many years, I (Alois Treindl, founder of Astrodienst) am involved in the creation of free and open source resources for correct astrological calculations. Swiss Ephemeris is a part; it has allowed and continues to allow many hundred of programmers all over the world to create rich astrology software with a very sound basis for calculation.

I am also involved in the free and open tz database project, started by Olson, the defendant in this lawsuit. My particular goal is to complete the gaps this database has in some areas for some periods of history. It currently gives correct timezone information for about 90% of charts, and it needs to be completed, by gathering more historical fact information from all available sources.

I am investing considerable resources in terms of time and funds into these projects, which serve the community, and are out there for everyone to use, freely and with no strings attached.

I think that the lawsuit by Astrolabe against two prominent figures of the open data movement was intended to create fear and confusion in the open data movement. It was intended to frighten people like me or Curtis Manwaring, who is actively working on a location and timezone history atlas based on open sources and free information.

I am glad that this attempt is to create fear and confusion is failing. The free data movement will come out stronger, once this frivolous lawsuit is settled or withdrawn.

It had saddened me that colleagues at Astrolabe, who were friends and business partners for decades, have tried such maneuvers, instead of cooperating in the process of creating an essential and complete open resource for the astrological community.

I had offered in the past to purchase all rights on the ACS atlas data collection, with the declared and clear intention to turn this data collection into a free and public resource. My offer is still standing.


Last edited by AloisT on Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 988
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AloisT wrote:
I had offered in the past to purchase all rights on the ACS atlas data collection, with the declared and clear intention to turn this data collection into a free and public resource. My offer is still standing.


This is the best route to go IMO. Time change history is public by its very nature and the advantage of open source allows collaboration with a large number of people in the world which can greatly increase accuracy. It is certainly better than having a small isolated group of researchers doing private work where the original sources for information are not easily accessible or verifiable (being secreted away through copyright and lack of documentation). More needs to be done to extend the Olson database past the 1970 date horizon and your proposal is the best hope for this that I see at the current time.
_________________
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 988
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The case against the Olson TZ Database is probably dead unless Astrolabe can explain why they have not served the defendants. The Court's "notice of potential dismissal" was filed this morning, since proof of service has not been filed, nor any other explanation.

PDF of the document: http://archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.mad.139342/gov.uscourts.mad.139342.4.0.pdf

My guess is that this legal stunt by Astrolabe was just to cause as much trouble as possible without crossing the line legally because they know there is no case. It looks like it was an attempt to stifle competition by trying to limit our commercial freedom to create.
_________________
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 988
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got this from John Hawkinson of the Olson TZ community:

A few minutes ago (1553 US/Eastern), Astrolabe filed a "Plaintiff's
Notice of voluntary Dismissal With Prejudice & Withosut [sic] Cost."

The document should be available at
http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.mad.139342/
in a few minutes.

Until then, you can find a copy at my mirror, though the document
itself is uninteresting:

http://web.mit.edu/jhawk/tmp/tz/

The operative text:

" PLAINTIFF'S NOTICE OF VOLUNTARY DISMISSAL
" WITH PREJUDICE & WITHOSUT COST
"
" Pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 41(a)(1), please take
" notice that Plaintiff ASTROLABE, INC., pursuant to Federal Rule of
" Civil Procedure 41(a)(1), hereby voluntarily dismisses all claims in
" this action with prejudice, and without costs, as to Defendants ARTHUR
" DAVID OLSEN and PAUL EGGERT.
"
" In connection with this NOTICE, the Plaintiff states that the
" Defendants have neither answered Plaintiff's Complaint, nor filed a
" motion for summary judgment. Accordingly, this matter may be
" dismissed with prejudice and without an Order of the Court.
_________________
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: USA

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to know that boondoggle is over with.
_________________
Gabe
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does "with prejudice" mean in this context?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: USA

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mithra6,

I think that means that they won't bring suit again.
_________________
Gabe
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 988
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GR wrote:
Hi Mithra6,

I think that means that they won't bring suit again.


It means that the issue cannot be brought back up in court at a later date against Olson and Eggert because Astrolabe failed to follow proper procedure in the matter. Astrolabe apparently knew they had no case because they didn't serve the defendants and as Alois said, it was apparently a move designed to create fear in the open data community. It was designed to create the "appearance of wrong doing" without evidence for as long as possible to try to generate sympathy for their position politically without crossing the line legally.
_________________
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 988
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EFF makes a statement about the Astrolabe case here:

https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-wins-protection-time-zone-database

Quote from EFF:

Quote:
In a statement, Astrolabe said, "Astrolabe's lawsuit against Mr. Olson and Mr. Eggert was based on a flawed understanding of the law. We now recognize that historical facts are no one's property and, accordingly, are withdrawing our Complaint. We deeply regret the disruption that our lawsuit caused for the volunteers who maintain the TZ database, and for Internet users."

_________________
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> News, Notices, Books, Links All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Page 5 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated