Hello,

I came across this chart and am trying to study besieged planets. This person has a trine going from Merc in Virgo, to Saturn in Cap., to Mars in Venus. I've read Bonatus and Lilly regarding besiegements, and they say that, for the most part, it involves a conjunction and other aspects. However, I'm uncertain if this qualifies for besieged since it is aspecting all trines in all three of the earth signs.

Also I am curious as to what everyone thinks about the four planets in domicile and Jupiter in exaltation. Don't see something like this everyday. Or... do you?

[img=http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4229/astro2gw01anonymous1859.th.gif]

Dajorok wrote:Hello,

I came across this chart and am trying to study besieged planets. This person has a trine going from Merc in Virgo, to Saturn in Cap., to Mars in Venus. I've read Bonatus and Lilly regarding besiegements, and they say that, for the most part, it involves a conjunction and other aspects. However, I'm uncertain if this qualifies for besieged since it is aspecting all trines in all three of the earth signs.

I think this topic should have been posted in the Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques; maybe a moderator can correct this.

IMO your example qualifies as a besiegement. The following from Abu Ma'shar:

Another misfortune is called the "contaiment", and this is in two ways; One of them is if a planet is in a sign and with it a malefic or its rays are before it and a malefic or its rays are behind it, or (that is) it is separating from a malefic in conjunction or by aspect and is applying to another malefic in this situation.


james

Hello,

I agree with James. It seems that Mercury is contained by Mars and Saturn as it separates from Saturn and aplies to Mars with no other planets intervening or casting rays between them (besieged has a more negative connotation, containment is probably a better term because you could also be contained by benefics).

Having said this, Mercury is in its own domicile and exaltation in the tenth sign from ascendant. This is a highly resourceful and powerful Mercury. The rays cast by the malefics are trines which are usually not destructive. This is like a King who still has power and resources to act but has to act acording to the rules dictated by Mars and Saturn which are not too harsh.

Hello astrojin,

Mercury is in its own domicile and exaltation in the tenth sign from ascendant. This is a highly resourceful and powerful Mercury.

I read your excellent post on planets's resources and strength -
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4868

So even though Mercury is cadent, it is productive because it is high on essential dignity and should able to perform its job very well. Is that right?

The rays cast by the malefics are trines which are usually not destructive. This is like a King who still has power and resources to act but has to act acording to the rules dictated by Mars and Saturn which are not too harsh.

In this case isn't Mercury applying to Mars problematic since Mars is in its detriment?

Vasanth

Hello Vasanth,

So even though Mercury is cadent, it is productive because it is high on essential dignity and should able to perform its job very well. Is that right?

If Mercury is in its own domicile or exaltation (or both for he is the only one who could have both!), he carries with it lots of potentials. In a cadent house makes him somehow inconspicuous. If Mercury is the significator of profession, he would be very good in his profession (high on resources) but may not be recognized in proportion to his achievements. So, to answer your question, yes highly essentially dignified Mercury is productive but being cadent does not add to the native power or Mercury's stuff does not add mainstream power to the native. BTW, I would say that Mercury is angular because he is in the tenth sign from ascendant (I am using whole sign house system).

In this case isn't Mercury applying to Mars problematic since Mars is in its detriment?

It would be problematic to Mercury but it is not going to be devastating. Reasons:

1) The aspect is not negative, in fact it is the best i.e. trine.
2) Mercury is in a very strong essential dignity (domicile and exaltation).
3) Mercury is also in a strong accidental dignity (angular if you use whole sign house system).
4) If the time of birth is really accurate, Lot of Fortune is located in early Scorpio making Mercury in the eleventh from Lot of fortune, one of the best houses among the Fortune?s houses.

So Mars will give troubles to Mercury (albeit minor irritations) but Mercury can handle it well. In fact, with trine aspect, we would expect that Mercury would lend a hand in helping Mars (who is the one in trouble here because he is detriment and cadent (whole sign). Does Mercury want to help? Yes, the trine aspect is an aspect of perfect friendship. Does he have the power to help? Yes, he is in its own domicile and exaltation and he is also angular (whole sign). Is it in a configuration to help? Yes! Mercury is applying trine to Mars with Mercury in its own domicile and exaltation. Abu Ma?shar would say that Mercury not only pushes counsel/management to Mercury, he is also pushing power to Mercury. So, this is a case of a detriment, weak planet (Mars) being helped and not the case of a essentially and accidentally strong planet (Mercury) being afflicted.

Hello astrojin,

Thanks for your detailed inputs. Your posts are very insightful!

BTW, I would say that Mercury is angular because he is in the tenth sign from ascendant (I am using whole sign house system)

So if one is using whole sign house system, a planet in the 10th sign will have strong accidental dignity irrespective of where the MC falls. Generally put, a planet gets strong accidental dignity if it is in the angular (1st, 10th, 7th or 4th) signs even though in quadrant house system it may be cadent. Right ?

I re-read your posts on the topic 'Signification, Resources, Strength and Favourability' and I think I am getting some clear picture.

Abu Ma?shar would say that Mercury not only pushes counsel/management to Mercury, he is also pushing power to Mercury.

I believe, you meant Mercury pushes counsel/management/power to Mars.

Vasanth

Hello,

Generally put, a planet gets strong accidental dignity if it is in the angular (1st, 10th, 7th or 4th) signs even though in quadrant house system it may be cadent. Right?

Yes, especially if the planet is also in angular sign position relative to Lot of Fortune. It goes without saying that if a planet is in angular sign relative to ascendant (angular by whole sign) and angular relative to dynamic house system (Porphyry, Alchabitius, Regiomonatanus, etc.), it is also goaded towards activity i.e. pushed into the "spotlight".

I believe, you meant Mercury pushes counsel/management/power to Mars.

When A applies to B, A pushes management or counsel to B. However, if in addition to this:
1) A is also in its own domicile or exaltation, A pushes power to B
2) A is in B's domicile or exaltation, A pushes nature to B and B receives A.

Dajorok wrote:(...) I've read Bonatus and Lilly regarding besiegements, and they say that, for the most part, it involves a conjunction and other aspects. (...)
[img=http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4229/astro2gw01anonymous1859.th.gif]

Hi Dajorok,

only as a late addition and 'correction' perhaps: Do you know another statement of Lilly - allowing aspects, as you write - than this, which I found in CA, p. 114 ?
"Besieging is, when any Planet is placed betwixt the bodies of the two Malevolent Planets SA and MA: as SA in 15. ar, MA in 10. of ar, VE in 13 ar: here Venus is besieged by the two infortunes, and it represents in questions, a Man going out of Gods bleesing into the warme Sunne; I mean if VE be s significatrix that time in the figure."

This is only for conjunctions, I think.

johannes

Thank you for all the input!! I am actually unsure what you mean about that sentence. I've come across it dozens of times yet Lilly doesn't seem to say whether that is the ONLY acceptable form of traditional besiegement. For example, in my birth chart l have Mercury in Virgo in the 7th conjunct Mars in Virgo, also in the 7th (separating from Mars) and applying to Saturn in Capricorn in the 11th. Honestly, like...l get that it's separating and applying from one malefic to another but, Saturn is in rulership and has decent dignity. Mars has no essential dignity but a good handful of accidental. What l am asking is, do the ancients consider this besieged? Lilly only covered if a planet is besieged by the malefics being both conjunct...however in my case only one is conjunct, but the separation/application rule still occurs. Even if it is besieged, it really doesn't look terrible. I honestly just hate subtracting the five bloody points for besiegement.

Dajorok wrote:Thank you for all the input!! I am actually unsure what you mean about that sentence. I've come across it dozens of times yet Lilly doesn't seem to say whether that is the ONLY acceptable form of traditional besiegement. For example, in my birth chart l have Mercury in Virgo in the 7th conjunct Mars in Virgo, also in the 7th (separating from Mars) and applying to Saturn in Capricorn in the 11th. Honestly, like...l get that it's separating and applying from one malefic to another but, Saturn is in rulership and has decent dignity. Mars has no essential dignity but a good handful of accidental. What l am asking is, do the ancients consider this besieged? Lilly only covered if a planet is besieged by the malefics being both conjunct...however in my case only one is conjunct, but the separation/application rule still occurs. Even if it is besieged, it really doesn't look terrible. I honestly just hate subtracting the five bloody points for besiegement.

I think rather than look at a points system, you should see how it plays out in your life. Mercury will be lord of the 7th and the 4th (he may be lord of some of the lots too), so see how he manages those topics. Also look out for when he is Lord of the Year via profections. Really, it is your life and you will know how it is, it is not suddenly going to become worse because you have started to study your nativity and found some difficult figures.