skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Al H. Morrison predicted WTC
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Mundane Astrology & World Events
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4954
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am beginning to recall just how complicated finding a foundational date for the WTC is! This section from one of Tom's earlier posts here highlights the problem.

Tom wrote:
Quote:
But in the course of my research I also pulled up some charts regarding the beginning of construction. The problem, as is always a problem with this sort of thing, is that there is no one set date and of course no easily obtainable time of day. I didn't spend too much time on these charts because no classical astrologer would have used them unless he knew the attack would be on the Twin Towers in the first place.

My question is: What foundation chart(s) would Morrison have used and what would he compare them to? There was groundbreaking in 1966 for the first tower and another groundbreaking for the second some time later . Should we use the opening in 1974, or capping even though the building was open for business but not yet completed when that happened. My desktop research could not produce a time of day for the ceremonies and is that the right date or do we need to look for final approval from the City?


I had thought the 5th of August 1966 could be taken as the original date for groundbreaking. However, I found this reference in the web site below:

Quote:
Construction begins on March 21 at the WTC site with the demolition of 78 Dey Street.


http://www.panynj.gov/wtcprogress/history-wtc.html

This site contains a chronology of various events in the project.

Does this demolition count as a foundational date or should be go with the actual groundbreaking to build the WTC site? What about the opening of the different buildings? Or the official approval from New York city authority? Then there is the dedication ceremony in April 1973 Confused Unfortunately, the WTC is probably one of the toughest complexes to agree a key date on.

There are traditional horoscopes for things like the founding of Baghdad. Those astrologers seem to have relied on the date for the beginning of the construction and that approach still makes sense to me.

However, the question here is what was AH Morrison thinking?

Mark

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3464
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There are traditional horoscopes for things like the founding of Baghdad.


If I recall correctly this was an election, but if they started building the city at the elected time it is also a foundation chart.

The problems with foundation charts in mundane astrology are apparent with this problem. We're only looking at WTC charts. What about NYC foundation charts? The actual attack is on the USA and the symbol of financial wealth and power. So what about the USA chart(s)?

There would have been a Jupiter Saturn conjunction in about 1960 which would have been in effect when the groundbreaking began and then there is the 1980 or 81 conjunction and the following one. Since we started with Morrison and this conversation took place in 1984, that might be the chart or the preceding Aries Ingress as Hand suggested.

I don't know that Morrison was a classical astrologer in the sense that we mean that term, but he would have used eclipses etc I'll look at some of the conjunctions and preceding Aries Ingress charts cast for NYC.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4674
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just looking through a few things; the idea of a World Trade Centre was first proposed in 1943. There was a solar eclipse on Aug. 1 1943 at 8LE03, which by instance also is conjunct Jupiter at 6LE50.

Morrison's research into the history of the building certainly went into the purchasing or acquiring of property.

Quote:
Wikipedia: On September 20, 1962, the Port Authority announced the selection of Minoru Yamasaki as lead architect and Emery Roth & Sons as associate architects.

On July 31. 1962 there was a solar eclipse at 7LE49 in opposition to Saturn at 8AQ05, so Saturn would be in a state of destruction through its opposition to the Sun and eclipse.
_________________
http://www.astronor.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4954
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
The problems with foundation charts in mundane astrology are apparent with this problem. We're only looking at WTC charts. What about NYC foundation charts? The actual attack is on the USA and the symbol of financial wealth and power. So what about the USA chart(s)?


That is a perfectly valid point. I wholeheatedly agree if we are discussing the WTC attacks in a general sense. However, I was trying to follow up Andrew's suggestion at the beginning of the thread that AH Morrison had studied the WTC in considerable detail and had knowledge of its construction.

Andrew wrote:
Quote:
Just looking through a few things; the idea of a World Trade Centre was first proposed in 1943. There was a solar eclipse on Aug. 1 1943 at 8LE03, which by instance also is conjunct Jupiter at 6LE50.

Morrison's research into the history of the building certainly went into the purchasing or acquiring of property.


Well if that was Morrison's line of thinking its clearly lost on me. This whole exercise feels like looking for the Cheshire cat. Smile

Henceforth I think I will focus my energy more on the general issue of the WTC attacks using mundane astrological techniques such as Robert Hand seems to have utilised. If we are going to learn anything of use from history we need mundane techniques that we can replicate.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4674
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Well if that was Morrison's line of thinking its clearly lost on me. This whole exercise feels like looking for the Cheshire cat. Smile

I can see your point and was a bit hesitant before entering that last post. However, with the case of Titanic there were several charts that related to several stages of becoming, the launching and maiden trip - all in which there was left a clue of default. Looking for the Cheshire cat? That is about like asking someone to prove astrology, isn't it. Just to add a word on cultural differences: After our roundtrip Morrison took me out for a meal and when we both were satisfied he asked for a doggie bag. I looked at him in suprise and said: "But you don't have a dog, do you??" Confused
_________________
http://www.astronor.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4954
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew wrote:
Quote:
Looking for the Cheshire cat? That is about like asking someone to prove astrology, isn't it.


mmm maybe that is a good analogy for those trying to do that. In other words it keeps appearing and disappearing in quite mischevious ways.... Plus it always has a big grin on its face. Very Happy Maybe Morrison would have been amused by all these attempts to follow the bread crumbs he left behind? Smile

I just feel the evidence is to too scant to try and sleuth exactly what Morrison or Zoller were up to. I would rather retrospectively try and work it out for myself using general mundane techniques. Plus if it turns out Morrison did rely a lot on charts for the WTC its not going to be much use as a general approach for mundane astrologers today. Noone else could have possibly predicted this. And yet me know others did....I think adopting a more general approach to this issue is (for me) a more constructive way forward.

As this thread is integrally linked to AL. H Morrison I think I may open a new thread for those wanting to discuss the 9/11 attacks using using general mundane astrology. Are we any wiser after this event? Could we predict such a catastrophe occuring in the future? If so how? A lot of explanations for the 9/11 attacks satisfied themselves with transits to the Sibly chart (or other chosen chart) or even just the event chart itself. However, that kind of approach is far too superficial. We can do better than that.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4674
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I don't mind taking a look around for the Cheshire Cat, Mark. It could still be around somewhere. Confused Both Morrison and Barclay were persistent regarding the importance of preceding syzygys, eclipses and then there is the Saros. The Terrorist Attack on the Twin Towers in nothing but one of the most horrifying and significant events of modern history, so I would expect nothing less than that it was indicated by an eclipse, and it would be an excellent opportunity to do research into the Saros.

If the building of the WTC was first proposed in 1943, I would like to have a look at the solar eclipse of Aug 1. this year and see whether there is anything that catches the eye:



The Solar eclipse in the 4th house of New York, joined to Jupiter and Pluto (terrorist action?) would seem to be an interesting starter. The eclipse is in a tight sextile to Uranus in Gemini. Notice the position of Uranus at 8GE02, in relation to Uranus in the US chart as mentioned by SGFoxe? Then Mars, Lord of the Scorpio 7th (the attacker), is in his detriment in Taurus in the 1st house. There is (less than) 2 degree separating the tight Jupiter/Pluto conjunction from the eclipse itself. From this point in time we are 2 years short of 60 up to the fatal day of destruction on Sep. 11 2001. I don't have an answer. I do not commonly progress the luminaries at a rate of 1 degree per day (this would bring the eclipse to a sextile with JU/PL through signs of longs ascension and below the horison). There could be another way, but there are things I want to look into before I let it go.

I do think that we could conduct an investigation into the possible astrological presignifications of the WTC attack at the Mundane section at Skyscript and that this would be an interesting example and exercise within collective research. Zollers work becomes interesting, too. As an astrologer, I get tend to get ruffled when people say I am psychic, when I am an astrologer and it may in fact come down to a matter of technique an interpretation.
_________________
http://www.astronor.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4954
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew wrote:
Quote:
Both Morrison and Barclay were persistent regarding the importance of preceding syzygys, eclipses and then there is the Saros. The Terrorist Attack on the Twin Towers in nothing but one of the most horrifying and significant events of modern history, so I would expect nothing less than that it was indicated by an eclipse, and it would be an excellent opportunity to do research into the Saros.


I am sure that approach will be worth exploring in depth and I agree it will be worth looking a Saros cycles in that. It will also be an opportunity to explore contrasting ways of working with eclipses. In particular the visual approach calculated from moment of greatest eclipse and/or the zodiacal technique which appears more symbolic. Do 'eclipse charts' based on localities where no actual eclipse occured really work? This seems an excellent opportunity to explore this. I am going to start my investigation by looking at solar and lunar eclipses actually visible from New York.

Andrew wrote:
Quote:
As an astrologer, I get tend to get ruffled when people say I am psychic, when I am an astrologer and it may in fact come down to a matter of technique an interpretation.


As I stated earlier I can understand why that can seem offensive. If you have spent decades studying and practising astrology it can seem annoying to have that skill apparently belittled as 'psychic'. For example if you give a horary or natal reading that goes especially well people can think you are 'psychic'. However, you may have just been following basic symbolism in the chart. Plus intuition is something that comes into all walks of life. People dont call an experienced Doctor that does a spot on diagnosis 'psychic'. That skill can only come about after years of study and practical experience. Having said all that I think the astrological community does have its fair share of psychic individuals. I think its something of a taboo to even suggest this in some astrological circles.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4674
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting comments, Mark. I don't think you have to be a psychic to be able to interpret a painting, but more likely it comes down to an understanding of how all the pieces come together. Like the performance of an accomplished pianist (or other musician, for that sake) seems little short of a miracle - it comes down to practice and co-ordination. The musician becomes one with his instrument.

We do have a phenomena known as 'scientific-intuition'. I think it all probably means that when you your field well enough you know how to maneuver around and 'which doors to open'. To be one with your instrument, you also have to be in tune with yourself.

The exception is the true story about the 3 Finish astrologers who got lost trying to find their way to an astrology conference somewhere in the sticks. They needed to find someone they could ask for directions, but passing through a remote village the only person they could find was a drunkard stumbling along the side of the road. Finding no one else to ask, they had no alternative but to turn back and stop the drunkard and ask him if he could tell them the way to the venue. The guy had had so much to drink they couldn't get a sensible word out of him, until he hung his head in through the car window and said; "You're Aries, you're Taurus and you're Pisces." These were the correct sunsigns of the astrologers on their way to the conference and the only comprehendable words they could get out of him. So the astrologers had to drive on... no wiser but certainly more puzzled than earlier. Laughing
_________________
http://www.astronor.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4954
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew wrote:
Quote:
The exception is the true story about the 3 Finish astrologers who got lost trying to find their way to an astrology conference somewhere in the sticks. They needed to find someone they could ask for directions, but passing through a remote village the only person they could find was a drunkard stumbling along the side of the road. Finding no one else to ask, they had no alternative but to turn back and stop the drunkard and ask him if he could tell them the way to the venue. The guy had had so much to drink they couldn't get a sensible word out of him, until he hung his head in through the car window and said; "You're Aries, you're Taurus and you're Pisces." These were the correct sunsigns of the astrologers on their way to the conference and the only comprehendable words they could get out of him. The astrologers had to drive on... little wiser but more puzzled than before.


Here is the UK we have the ancient stand up comedian jokes based on 'An Englishman, Scotsman and an Irishman'. Sounds like this could be the astrological equivalent! Very Happy

There is a tale I could share about the kind of psychic phenomena in astrology I mean but this is a public forum and I think I better leave names out of this since it featues a rather prominent astrologer. As you mentioned people can be offended at this suggestion and I have probably said more than enough.

Andrew wrote:
Quote:
We do have a phenomena known as 'scientific-intuition'. I think it all probably means that when you your field well enough you know how to maneuver around and 'which doors to open'. To be one with your instrument, you also have to be in tune with yourself.


You undoubtably have a good point there. If you have seen a first rate pianist or guitarist their skill can seem almost superhuman. Nevertheless, I think excellent prognostication probably relies on something more intangible than just study, hard work, and experience. I accept these are important and you need this foundation. However, I feel there is an X factor beyond this. For example, look at William Lilly. Lots of astrologers in his generation worked hard, studied and had volumes of clients. Yet Lilly had a particular quality as an astrologer that his contemporaries acknowledged made him special. As the old saying goes 'you cant put in what God left out'.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 509

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello

Just to make your life even more complicated Mark... Smile ..... remember that there was an attack on the WTC in New York in 1993. Stellarium mentioned it on page 1 of this thread. Although it's been overshadowed by the attack in 2001, I suspect that astrologically it's just as useful to look at.

http://www.panynj.gov/wtcprogress/events-022693.html

Regards

handn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3464
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Handn has a point. But we may use this in order to clarify things. If we use a foundation chart of some kind, either ingress or event, something has to trigger it either by direction, progression or transit. The chart so triggered would be the most likely chart to reveal the 9/11 attacks.

The earlier attack was committed underground and explosives were planted in a rented truck. Although people were killed and considerable damage was done, things did get back to normal pretty quickly.

And we also need to recall that the Pentagon was hit on 9/11 and another attempt was in the offing by a bewildered pilot who couldn't find the White House. It wasn't only New York that was attacked.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4674
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,
Do we separate the two events? One chart suggesting that the WTC will be rammified by a Boeing (specific place and event), and another for an attack on US territory (timing)? Something to do with lightening choosing the line of least resistance..? That is an idea, too, of how to put together generals and specifics. With 9/11 several things happened at once.
_________________
http://www.astronor.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Scott Silver



Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 13

Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:13 am    Post subject: Al H. MOrrison Book Reply with quote

HI,
SInce Al is being wonderfully remembered here, and no one has mentioned the book his last student, Karen Christino, compiled, 'The Best of Al. H. Morrison'. This book is still available. STella Mira Books or Press. I spent an afternoon with him and like Andrew, I have spent years chasing down the answers that would help me puzzle out simple declarative remarks of an astrological nature he made in passing. Here's what he said that threw me-if you have direct Nodes, then the meaning is reversed. I have yet to figure out exactly what he meant,. Did he mean the Lunar Nodes significations flip when they go direct by progression or was he solely referring to the natal chart. I am not even quoting him correctly But if any one who corresponded with Al has any additional material on direct vs retrograde lunar nodes, do post a summary. 'Secrets from A Stargazer's Notebook' that swell tome by Debbi Kempton Smith on which more then a few of us were seduced into a lifetime of astrological study, was,, according to Al, originally supposed to be an authorized biography of Al H. Morrison but he refused to cooperate. I'd love to see someone collect the many letters he wrote...why Andrew, between you, Anne Lathrop, Zane Stein, L. Blake Finely and a few others, we'd have a whole bushel of correspondence to mull over!
I think Al used to post regularly in the hard copy publication 'The Mercury Hour' which was rather like an internet forum long before the internet existed for the general public. Love to see that stuff collected as well. MInor planet Morrison is worth delineating in your chart.lol Especially if you wer ealso a fan of the American rock band the Doors as well as a student of Al's.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2883
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i can't remember who said this in some old book, but i remember the mention of t mars hitting an eclipse degree as a problem...

i note the solar eclipse for june 30 1992 su/mo at 8 cancer 56.
mars on the date of the wtc attack - feb 26 1993 at 9 cancer 26..

the solar eclipse prior to 9-11 is on june 21 2001 su/mo @ 0 cancer 10
mars on the date of sept 11 2001 1 cancer 26..

fwiw and all that jazz...........
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Mundane Astrology & World Events All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated