skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Al H. Morrison predicted WTC
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Mundane Astrology & World Events
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3509
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found the tape I referred to above and it isn't the right one. The tape is of a lecture on the chart of the modern era, but the lecture was given in May of 2002, 8 months after 9/11. It is still of interest and it relates to 9/11 a little. I'll write some more on this after I listen to the tape in its entirety. I have old notebooks of Hand's earlier lectures that I attended and I'll look for them.

At this website:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrology-articles/911-prophecy-prediction.php

I found this remark re: Rob Hand and 9/11:


Quote:
In the Aug./Sept. 2001 issue of The Mountain Astrologer, Robert Hand picked the Saturn-Pluto opposition of 2001-2002, especially the quarter starting with the Libra equinox 2001 and/or the Aries equinox 2002, as times that are more likely to lead to a US military engagement in the Middle East.


Anyone who has that issue might enlighten us.

Sandstone's link is to the Luke Andrews article I referred to above.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3509
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The lecture used the Aries Ingress that came before the Grand Conjunction (occurs in early Aries for the first time in a cycle) of 1702 cast for London.

March 21 1702 NS
2:11 AM GMT
London, UK

The latest version of Solar Fire says 2:12 AM. Hand also used whole sign houses.

This chart is the chart of the modern era, according to Hand and it is in effect for about 795 years. In this example he used transits of Pluto to the Pluto in this chart: 12 Leo 20 and he used an astro-cartography map as well. Using this chart the Pluto-MC line goes right through New York City. The Pluto IC line goes through Hanoi but that is another story. The Mars MC line goes through Tehran.

The purpose in using London is that in 1702 London would be, if not the world's de facto capital at least the capital of the West and the West's most powerful nation. Using New York does not change the Astro-cartography map but it would change the house that holds Pluto. Cast for NYC Pluto is in the 10th house of government conjunct the MC so Pluto represents the government.

Sticking with US history we have the following events coinciding with the following Pluto transits to the 1702 Pluto

Opposition: US Constitutional Convention
Trine: 1830s beginning of serious problems re:slavery
Square: US Civil War
Conjunction: 1947 US & USSR world super powers
Square: Soviet Union collapses
Trine: 9/11
Opposition: 2031 - 2032

Dates are approximate.

On a personal note, I am uncomfortable with the Arab idea that since they couldn't accurately calculate an ASC or MC for the Jupiter Saturn conjunction that the preceding Aries Ingress would do. On the other hand the use of Pluto is fairly impressive in this case.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1635
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chart for the Modern Era??? Why this chart and why for 795 years? That statement is both profound and curious to me.

having asked that, I'd ad to your 1830 list: Jackson's Indian Removal Act of 1830 and the beginning of his attack on the US Bank in 1830 causing the WORST depression the country has ever seen, worse even than the 30s or now, was also represented by that transit, and also a great contributor to the division that would eventually begin the Civil war. but that is certainly opinion on my part.

Granny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3509
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Chart for the Modern Era??? Why this chart and why for 795 years? That statement is both profound and curious to me.


Like I said, it is the Aries Ingress that precedes a Grand Conjunction. A Grand Conjunction is defined as the first conjunction of Saturn & Jupiter in a new cycle in Aries. This happens once in 795 years give or take a little. Since Aries is the beginning of the zodiac, this is the beginning of a new cycle. The idea is Abu Mashar's

In Abu Mashar's day, he lived 787 - 886 AD, the math necessary to accurately calculate the correct moment for a Grand Conjunction was unknown, the astrologers of the day used the preceding Aries Ingress. Whether or not this actually works, I don't know. But we were looking for reasons in medieval astrology that could possibly help understand how Robert Zoller predicted 9/11 and this may be one.

Hand who defined his methods as "weird" or "eccentric" used astro-cartography and modern planets on an old chart to great effect. If anyone has Solar Maps, this is a revealing technique, and I thought it was worth mentioning.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4676
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Dec. 14. Tom wrote:
My question is: What foundation chart(s) would Morrison have used and what would he compare them to? There was groundbreaking in 1966 for the first tower and another groundbreaking for the second some time later . Should we use the opening in 1974, or capping even though the building was open for business but not yet completed when that happened. My desktop research could not produce a time of day for the ceremonies and is that the right date or do we need to look for final approval from the City?

Better question: why do famous astrologers make accurate predictions and not tell anyone how they did it? Or maybe Morrison was just kidding?

I'm sorry, I missed the topic notification on this on-going discussion, so although I started it, I have not been participating. I was only 21 years at the time I visited N.Y. and popped by Al H.Morrison, Michael Lutin, Bill Meridian and others. There were a lot of things to take in. Morrison's office down Old Chelsea Station was probably 8 times my office space today and four times the mess. Things that Morrison either said or showed I had to take with me and figure out on my own afterwards. Previously this year (1984) Morrison had published an article of mine on the chart of Norway. The only thing I can say is that Morrison was quite explicit in his prediction. I only have a few seasons of his CAO TImes. Whether he left any written material on this prediction in either this journal or in other written work is hard for me to say. However, I do believe it is a significant prediction, as far as astrology does come, and there is the opportunity for us to us to acknowledge it, record it and try and figure out how it was done.

The first time I met Robert Hand and told him of my acquaintance with Morrison, Hand said: "The trouble with Morrison is that he has forgotten more astrology than the rest of us ever knew." I recall Morrison telling me, while we were looking through an old catalogue of eclipse paths, how little we knew and understood about how the old Chaldean astrologers and High Priests formed their predictions. I find it intriguing, the prospect of lost knowledge, and it is a challange to try and put all the pieces together again.
---------------------------------------

It's like a lost song, isn't it? Morrison did not have the charts on him as we were stood on the top of the WTC. I felt Morrison was expressing himself in full sincereness, even though I was trying to work him out. I mean, he took me to Wall Street and then to the United Nations to look at some Moon Rock. Future market crashes were not discussed, neither the prospects of Martians or water on the Moon.

Really, I feel it as both a responsibilty and opportunity to pass on this story about Morrison to the astrological community. I mean, astrology is what this guy lived and breathed for, as may be valid for the rest of us. Some time in the future astrologers may spend decades in search of Tom's wine cellar on the basis of fragments of text found at Skyscript. Tom, you will save us the odd spot of Bourbon, won't you? Laughing
_________________
http://www.astronor.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 5004
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew wrote:
Quote:
I'm sorry, I missed the topic notification on this on-going discussion, so although I started it, I have not been participating. I was only 21 years at the time I visited N.Y. and popped by Al H.Morrison, Michael Lutin, Bill Meridian and others.


That must have been an exciting experience at such a young age!

I have no doubt Morrison was an excellent astrologer. However, I find it hard to believe that a prediction as graphically explicit as this one didn't involve some psychic ability too. I find it interesting Morrison never offered any astrological explanation for that statement. If he had just predicted a collapse astrologically at some point one could study foundation charts. But to get that a jumbo jet would hit the Twin Towers seems beyond just astrological symbolism to me.

Astrologers are a cross section of the overall population like any other group. In my opinion some astrologers do have that ability. That is why I have doubts whether any chart will really unearth the exact process that led Morrison to this remarkable prediction. If it did rely on a flash of psychic premonition it would not be replicatable with just astrological technique on its own. Still, I cannot be sure about this for certain. Maybe the limitations of my astrological understanding are blinkering me. I certainly think we should at least try to replicate such predictions with our available techniques.

However, when we are offered remarkable astrological predictions without any real explanation how they were arrived at there will always be the thought they may derive more from psychic premonition than simply astrological technique.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4676
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But to get that a jumbo jet would hit the Twin Towers seems beyond just astrological symbolism to me.

It's Christmas Eve and I am not going to get my books and notes out, but I do believe the term 'Jumbo' or 'Boeing" was derived from the significations of a 'Big Bird' represented by the planet Jupiter.
_________________
http://www.astronor.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 5004
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew wrote:
Quote:
.... I do believe the term 'Jumbo' or 'Boeing" was derived from the significations of a 'Big Bird' represented by the planet Jupiter.


Ok. We can hopefully explore that after the holidays. Smile

Andrew wrote:
Quote:
It's Christmas Eve and I am not going to get my books and notes out


Quite right too! Its down tools and even astrolabes for a few days.

Let me wish all the mundane forum users and Skyscripters generally a great Christmas and a peaceful New Year.

Mark








_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3509
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And Merry Christmas to everyone here. Just for the sake of clarity, I wasn't challenging anyone. I was just musing why an astrologer would do, particularly what Zoller did, make a formal prediction without telling anyone how he did it or why he believes it. A conversation is a conversation and we don't have to carry notes with us wherever we go, much less recall perfectly everything that was said to us 27 years ago. It's bad enough that we were adults 27 years ago, but to be expected to recall all of it is over the top. Wink

Morrison probably needs to be better known than he is. I know almost nothing about him. He is mentioned with affection by Debbie Kempton Smith in her beginner's book Secrets from a Stargazer's Notebook. Quite by accident in a cafe reading an astrology book a person started a conversation with me and noted that she had seen Morrison give a talk at a college once and although she was not an astrologer, she thoroughly enjoyed it. If Hand said Morrison forgot more astrology than most people know, then Morrison should be better known: period. I just wish he told us why he said what he did.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1635
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven't checked in for a few days, I've been merrily sewing. Teddy bears for the grandkids, wreath wall hangings for my sister, daughters and mother, etc... but had a moment this morning to stop in and Wow! Thanks Tom, I hadn't ever heard about that particular use of the Grand conjunction. I will go do some looking!

And Andrew, doesn't it always seem the way, we get teachings from people who will pass before we are ready to fully understand what they were trying to tell us! I'm glad he mentioned it to a person who was able to pass it along. I think he did not leave enough written material behind. In 1984 I was 22 and pregnant with my second child, I did however attend several of the Olympic games in Los Angeles that year. it was an interesting year for me.

and happy winter holiday of your choice all. I think most here celebrate Christmas, but since I have a wide variety of relatives that celebrate many other things, (hey more joy to share! I"m okay with that!) I'll leave that open ended.

Granny!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4676
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing is trying to remember what Al H. Morrison said in 1984, which I am sure related to the groundbreaking in 1966 that Tom referred to. Another is relocating the material I looked into in afterhand. One thing is clear in my mind, there was nothing casual or trifling in Morrison approach when he told me the history of the towers and gave me his prediction - on the day of the lunar eclipse in Nov 1984.

Several matters that Morrison spoke about on that day were related to syzygy's, eclipses and eclipse paths, but there were things regarding timing (and techniques of ancient priest astrologers) that he hadn't quite figured out. He was quite clear that he did not know the time when the attack on the WTC would occur, but he was equally convinced I would see it happen.

The eclipse preceding the groundbreaking in 1966 was the lunar eclipse of Dec 8.1965 with the Moon 16GE25 square Pluto at 18VI25 and Uranus at 19VI30. Jupiter, who is lord of the eclipse by disposition of the luminary above the horison, was 27GE24r. Yet, I am wondering whether I found a reference that took me back to the total solar eclipse of May 30. 1965. Here the total eclipse occurred at 9GE13 with Jupiter 8GE38 and Uranus 10VI45.

Morrison died on May 29. 1995, which is only one day from the 30th anniversary of the total solar eclipse on May 30. 1965. On this day, May 29. 1995, the day Morrison passed away (Link), there was a new Moon at 7GE34 in opposition to Jupiter at 10SG53r. It becomes rather intriguing and I would feel compelled to suggest he was giving us a clue on where to look.
_________________
http://www.astronor.com


Last edited by Andrew Bevan on Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:54 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 274
Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really? -- he died on the new moon conjuct US Uranus at 7GE35?!! which new moon I use as further verification of US ascendant -- I never met Al H in the flesh, but we had an active correspondence for a while, and I developed my obsession for US history supporting my argument for the 7GE34 (take that Laurie Ephron) (the galactic plane is a much more reliable time keeper than the mythical 0Aries Sidereal, the cause of all our woes over ayanamsa)

As I recall, I also use this new moon as the dawn of the Age of Aquarius, -- www being shortly invented by al gore & aol around then --

Morrison was very psychic besides being an accomplished astrologer; he had stories about how he couldn't wear a watch -- his energies would stop them ...

I now have a quibble with the SF8 module the new moon algorithm therein which yields a 17AQ58 or so US moon rather than the good old 18AQ10 -- I could test it out though -- since I use a technique charting the transiting sun on natal moon ... those 12-14 minutes of arc are a couple of hours time apart ... I call this an alchemical and it can be uncanny for timing events in the cycle -- the solar on moon is an Almanac, I call the t-moon on the natal sun the 'zine -- you know, issue of the month which is the MC of the chart. I'll see if this lunar algorithmic facelift focuses on the US major issues and if the Aussies know what they're doing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1635
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew, have you looked at your chart in comparison with AHMs? something he might have done before meeting you, sometimes a person knows when a student or teacher is coming along... Just wondering.

Granny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4676
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that is a bit off-track, Granny. However, I do have a response: Morrison and I had corresponded a few years. I had purchased material from him and prepared material for the CAO TIMES. My reason for travelling to NY was to visit a Norwegian girl-friend serving as au pair for the priest at the Norwegian church in Manhattan. We later lived together for 7 years having two children, a Gemini and a Virgo. However, I do believe the girl may only have been the excuse for travelling to NY. I perceive that humans are like icebergs where the tip above the water is all we can see and understand. However, there is a lot more going on below the surface and this may weigh considerably more than the visable fraction. So the reason for being moved to NY at this point in time may not have been apparent to the eye, but something could have been going on in a larger plan or context. This is how I think things work.
_________________
http://www.astronor.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 5004
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew wrote:
Quote:
One thing is trying to remember what Al H. Morrison said in 1984, which I am sure related to the groundbreaking in 1966 that Tom referred to. Another is relocating the material I looked into in afterhand. One thing is clear in my mind, there was nothing casual or trifling in Morrison approach when he told me the history of the towers and gave me his prediction - on the day of the lunar eclipse in Nov 1984.

Several matters that Morrison spoke about on that day were related to syzygy's, eclipses and eclipse paths, but there were things regarding timing (and techniques of ancient priest astrologers) that he hadn't quite figured out. He was quite clear that he did not know the time when the attack on the WTC would occur, but he was equally convinced I would see it happen.

The eclipse preceding the groundbreaking in 1966 was the lunar eclipse of Dec 8.1965 with the Moon 16GE25 square Pluto at 18VI25 and Uranus at 19VI30. Jupiter, who is lord of the eclipse by disposition of the luminary above the horison, was 27GE24r. Yet, I am wondering whether I found a reference that took me back to the total solar eclipse of May 30. 1965. Here the total eclipse occurred at 9GE13 with Jupiter 8GE38 and Uranus 10VI45


Thanks Andrew, Thumbs up

First off I wasn't seeking to put you on the spot to come up with with Morrison's methodology. I sometimes find it difficult to remember recent conversations so its remarkable you can recollect or reconstruct as much as you have! You have certainly given us all useful material to look at and explore. I think it would be useful to put up these charts in this thread.

I know next to nothing of AH Morrison. He does sound a remarkable man. However, I find the specificity and lack of equivocation of his prediction hard to reconcile with purely astrological symbolism. Surely, we have all encountered the experience of various things being symbolized by a planetary significator? How then could Morrison be so definitive about a Boeing Jet hitting the Twin Towers? The other odd thing was that Morrison didn't seem to know exactly when this event would occur. It seems the prediction was based on foundational charts and eclipses etc.

Maybe I am just demonstrating the poverty of my astrological knowledge and ability but this seems to fit an insight derived from an intuitive flash. That doesn't mean astrological symbolism wasn't used in reaching that point.

I know the suggestion an astrologer was incoprporating psychic ability in a prediction can be seen as insulting to some practitioners. It can be seen to be diminishing someones astrological ability at the expense of psychic hunches. Considering the hard work and time that astrological prediction can involve that is understandable.

However, I dont see it is this way myself. I think it can be just seen as an additional plus or bonus some people bring to the art. That doesn't mean they cannot offer an astrological analysis to explain their prediction. However, I suspect other astrologers may struggle to get to precisely the same prediction even in hindsight. I think a lot of astrologers are reluctant to discuss this subject for fear that astrology will be linked to closely to divinatory arts like Tarot or I Ching.

In any case this isn't the philosophy forum. These are just my own musings on the subject. Feel welcome to reject my point of view if you choose.

I do think we should at least endeavour to see what AH Morrison was up to astrologicaly and look forward discussing that further here.

Quote:
Jupiter, who is lord of the eclipse by disposition of the luminary above the horison, was 27GE24r.


Interesting. This was the same degree the Moon was on at the time of the Twin Towers attack. It is also the location of the reddish fixed star Betelgeuse which Ptolemy stated was of the nature of Mars and Mercury.

Quote:
The eclipse preceding the groundbreaking in 1966 was the lunar eclipse of Dec 8.1965


There was also a Lunar eclipse on May 4th 1966 which preceded the groundbreaking of the WTC on August 5th 1966. However, both this and the December 1965 lunar eclipse took place in daylight in New York. There was therefore no visible lunar eclipse on either date. If Morrison was influenced by Mesopotamian techniques as you indicated this could be significant as the Mesopotamian astrologers and later Ptolemy only considered visible eclipses in the location concerned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_20th_century_lunar_eclipses

There was also an annular solar eclipse on May 20th 1966. Not visible from NY so I have displayed it here at the point of exact zodiacal conjunction



Eclipse path of Annular eclipse 1966: Guinea, Mali, Algeria, Libya, Greece, Turkey, southern Russia, China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_eclipses_in_the_20th_century

Note the heavy concentration of planets in late Taurus. The ascendant, Lot of fortune, and the eclipse itself on the generally malefic fixed star cluster known as the Pleiades which are of the nature of the Moon and Mars. Both Venus (Lord 1) and Mars ( Lord 7) disposit each other from their zodiacal signs of detriment.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Mundane Astrology & World Events All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 2 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated