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Mundane Challenge: The Euro Crisis
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
I was feeling a bit guilty about going off in a tangent until I saw this! Laughing I wish I had time to properly go over your analysis above but no time sadly. Anyway, thanks for our first mundane post delineating with the MC house system!
Well, someone mentioned China so from one came another .... Tongue Out. It could still be of relevance, it's litteraly a world problem. Hopefully the equal MC doesn't collide too much with the different rulerships for the intermediate cusps of other house systems.

Lunlumo wrote:
Belgium - a country that, with a view to political basics, has partly ceased to exist. No government. Kept alive by EU red tape. Fascinating - nobody seems to notice this. Falling apart. Belgium: two countries now - no government for more than a year, bad ratings - so NO.
Belgium was always a bit like that, a buffer-state after French imperialism of Napoleon.

handn wrote:
The Aries ingress for 2011 set for Frankfurt has Jupiter as the Asc-ruler
Interesting that Jupiter was also Ascendant ruler of 2011. 2011 from Sagittarius and 2012 from Pisces.

I also find the delineation difficult. It's also because I don't know much about economics.

Jupiter just missing the opposition with Saturn is interesting, Handn had the date for this, around 7-11 january 2012. Just no kiss goodbye in the retrograde for these two planets after March's opposition.
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Lunlumo



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Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As to "positive developments...": "Your loss will be my gain." ( my loss = your gain). Everybody expects Merkel "to take action". But whatever she will do will be not a "gain" but a "loss" for her. People telling her to "take action" really mean: "Pay our debts!".
Have a closer look at some of the charts given above, notably the CAP solar ingress: inflation is threatening, see NEP...
Confirmed by today's flooding of money (13 hours GMT, preferably to be referred to Frankfurt) - United Press(ing) of FED, ECB etc. - i.e. united money printing.

Hoping it won't be too "odd" - Horary chart: Mark's initial question (3rd posting of this thread) concerning the future prospects of the Euro (referred to Edinburgh - hoping (?) he was there that day):



See the forthcoming aspects -preferably NEP. SUN at 2.x degrees VIR = quality of that degree: SUN/SAT. NEP at 2 degrees PIS, opposing SUN/Orcus, square MC/IC : probably sudden and total breakdown of familiar structures (spring 2012).
2-3 degrees PIS: SAT/NEP quality (very strong degree) A closer look at 2 PIS in history would be most revealing. The last time NEP was there was in 1848: a) Marx's Communist Manifest b) the 1848/49 Revolution throughout Europe. (What might be taken into account: in the 1801/GB-chart PL is at 2 PIS).
LL
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hoping it won't be too "odd" - Horary chart: Mark's initial question (3rd posting of this thread) concerning the future prospects of the Euro (referred to Edinburgh - hoping (?) he was there that day):


Hi Lunlumo,

Yes I was in Edinburgh! Smile I was asking the question of our members but I suppose it could be treated as an interrogation of the stars in the classic horary sense.

The first question we need to ask is ,is is this chart radical? It appears so as the planetary hour and day ruler is Venus. It is in Virgo and thereby the day triplicity ruler making the planetary hour ruler and its placement compatible.

Moon is void of course (using any definition) probably reflecting the sense of utter drift and helplessness people feel just now. Moon is well dignified and in a good house (11th). However Mercury, the ASC/MC ruler is in the 12th house. Mercury is also not applying to any traditional planets. It is in aversion to the house its rules (H1). However, it perfects an opposition to Neptune in about 10 degrees. Although Mercury is arguably out of orb to Neptune so I probably wouldn't consider this. Two positives: Mercury is antiscia Jupiter and trine the North Node. Still a real sense of events just hanging at the time of the question. Saturn appropriately in the 2nd house. The Lot of fortune is located in the 12th house and disposited by the Sun which is Lord 12. Jupiter (Lord 4 and 7) is trine the ASC.

Second house ruler (Venus) in the 12th house by Placidus and 1st by whole sign. By traditional orb it is conjunct the ASC. This reflects the financial issues which are the exclusive focus at this time. It is combust the Sun but separating. Jupiter traditional significator of wealth in the 8th by Placidus and 9th by WS. Both seem appropriate. Venus applying to a trine of Jupiter in 5 degrees. In horary a dramatic split or separation is usually symbolized by an opposition. I dont see that in this chart. Still if you count the Nepune opposition to Mercury it could fit a dissolution.

Mind you this is all based on taking the Ascendant as Virgo. I can imagine a lot of horary specialists would probably use a turned (derived) chart which would place the 9th house as the first house as my enquiry is effectively about foreign countries (to me at least). Confused

Mark
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Lunlumo



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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

(too much tossing and turning in mundane horary charts, I feel)

I can only agree: AC=the matter in question. So MER (=currency) is what it's all about.
What would Lilly have said?
LL
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handn



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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello

WIlliam Lilly would probably point to the considerations before judgement and then point to Mercury at its 2nd station and Jupiter on the brink of its 1st station....... along with the Moon's large gap before being within orb of making another application (plus being somewhat afflicted by both the malefics).........

Mark's post made it clear that he was putting the question to us without specifying a technique, so he definitely was not seeking a horary consultation, and nor was he invoking a horary chart himself for the answer to come through him, so I'm afraid I'm not convinced that the moment/location was a 'live' one horary-wise...... it's arguable that a moment/location for casting a mundane horary would be invoked by the decision of a reader of the thread choosing horary as their preferred technique.

All in all I think there are theoretical and practical indications to be cautious about using the horary chart. (And that's leaving aside the usual debate about whether mundane horaries are reliable.)

Having said that, the proof is in the pudding and I'd be happy to eat my words (and some real pudding... it's only fair).

I do genuinely wonder (with an open mind) why we'd need to use a horary though if all the other techniques brought to bear further up the thread are deemed to work, and if horary works why go to the trouble of all the other calculations, particularly in a pre-computer age? Obviously the complexity of a question can mean horary would simplify things, that's one argument in its favour.... are there other compelling reasons to use horary for this question?

Regards

H.
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Handn,

I agree with your comments. My initial post (which I later edited) was rather disparaging as I dont really trust political horaries. Its hard for the questioner to really put personal connection into such questions and the house attributions are always debatable. I just thought I would go through the process of looking at the chart as a horary as its been ages since I have done one. Very Happy Lilly's political horaries are different as he is usually being asked by an interested party. I certainly didn't really put personal investment into this question. It was more a question to our membership. I wouldn't put much store by the chart myself.

More generally, you have raised some very interesting questions about mundane astrology earlier in the thread. I haven't had the time to reply properly yet but I will respond to your points when time allows.

Mark
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daz madrigal



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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: Mundane Challenge: The Euro Crisis Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Are you a prognosticator?

Are you tired of seeing astrologers describing events retrospectively rather than predicting them?

Do you feel you have the ability to predict a major event using your astrological knowledge? Have you seen an event in the news and thought..''I knew that was coming based on chart x?''

If so here is the first of what I will call our mundane challenges!

The Challenge question

''Will the Euro currency collapse and if so when?''




Not so much a collapse as a rebirth.



Early February 2012.


G
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Michaelb



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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:25 pm    Post subject: Mundane Challenge: The Euro Crisis Reply with quote

Hi
To attempt answer initial question in topic why not apply various LoL -length of life- or durability formulae to the various charts?? Example, 1.1.1958 to 2011 is 53 years, close to Saturn. The 1999 chart to 2011 is 12 years, Jupiter. The 2002 chart is now 9 years, Venus. That also could be Jupiter but a glance at latter two charts do not place either in a position to direct them to the West ala Placidus where, one may add or subtract years to from the arc to the Descendant, i.e., the West. If I remember correctly this was only applicable in quad from Mc to Desc.. 1993 chart is 18 years near Sun 19 years. So then what planets are the giver of years etc., in these EU Euro charts??

What follows, a guess to using Aries Ingress and Conjunction charts.

The charts in this example are for Brussels so this is not about indicators for the Euro but for the E.U.. Top wheel is a bi wheel for the Sun in Aries 2000 chart prior to the Jupiter Saturn conjunction May 28 2000 and Profected wheel to 3 20 2011. Also, the Inner wheel is the Sun in Aries chart, the outer are Profected positions to 2011 03 20. It shows yearly Pro Asc to 22+ Aries.
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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The Pro Asc degree is conjunct the most recent Mars Jupiter conjunction, 5 1 2011 04:26 GMT

Mars Jupiter give hints to squandering of money, over indulgence, living beyond ones means and in general, trouble through money.

Profecting the 22+ Aries Asc by 13 steps method to 2011.11.28 just few days ago gives an Asc 22+Cap placing the Mars Jupiter conjunction in the 10H the most active place and the leaders are busy busy.

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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Chart above, Inner wheel is Mars Jupiter conjunction 5 1 2011, outer wheel is Aries Ingress 2000 just prior to Jupiter Saturn conjunction. This one shows Profected Asc degree at 22+ Aries but planets are not Profected, see first chart above for those positions.

The Mars Jupiter Conjunction took place at 22 Aries in the 12H Brussels. Does this show foreign involvement playing a role?? We know the Greeks had help from an American firm to hide facts. What else to notice, Saturn all by his lonesome opposite all the planets in Aries.

Moving on, I took the 2011 Aries ingress prior to 2011 Mars Jupiter Conjunction for Brussels - Aries Ingress data >>>> 3 20 2011 23:21 GMT Asc 28Sc39 and Profected the angles forward to October 2011 when things heated up vs. Greece. According to Morinus, moving Profected monthly to date of 2011 10 03 became 28 Gemini - from Scorpio above. This within one degree of 1.1.58 MC.

The MC for the 3 20 2011 Aries chart Profected to 2011 10 03 moves from 22 Virgo to 22 Aries the point of the most recent Mars Jupiter Conjunction. These various movements spurring leaders of the E.U., to deal with this matter latter part of October 2011.

Note in Mars Jupiter 2011 conjunction chart the Sun is angular and conjunct 1.1.58 charts Moon both 10+ Taurus. 1.1.58 chart not shown in this post. This hints to Sun, the E.U., loosing patience reaching a point, less concerned about the welfare of others who in Suns eyes caused this problem. What was name of Fleetwood Mac song, Go your own way? This a hint ?? to so much talk about survival of E.U., or it’s breakup. Who is leader of E.U.? Appears to be Germany who I am sure long for their D-Mark. How on earth could Germany give up the D-Mark?

Now go back to the 2000 Jupiter Saturn conjunction 5 28 2000 around 16:04 GMT for Brussels. The conjunction at 22+Taurus. That chart should give an Asc around 29Li39.

The Aries Ingress that year 3 20 2000 07:35 GMT Brussels gives an Asc around 22Ta53.

This is a total mess to keep track of. Seems just to many charts to deal with. We really need something like the Hindi systems to get us to the point a lot quicker. Or do any of you know something I dont, please tell me and others, smile smile. Still, it is fun when indicators pop up when and where you would expect them to.

I list dates for charts of interest ?? you may put in computer and print out to view. All times are in GMT and Brussels 50n50 4e20 All dates and time taken from Astro.com Ephemeris pages.

Aries Ingress 3 20 1957 21:16 GMT Asc around 6Sc26
Cap Ingress 12 22 1957 02:49 GMT Asc around 3Sc16
1.1.1958 E.U or Rome Treaty Brussels. Mr Lunlumo posted this chart earlier in topic.
The Aries Ingress 3 20 2000 07:35 GMT Asc around 22Ta53
2000 Jup Sat conj 5 28 2000 16:04 GMT Asc around 29Li39.
Full Moon of the Year 2011 3 19 2011 18:11 GMT Asc around 2Li52, Lunation 28Vi48 conjunct 1.1.58 Asc.
Aries Ingress 3 20 2011 23:21 GMT Asc around 28Sc39
Mars Jupiter conjunction 5 1 2011 04:26 GMT Asc around 11Ta44 a little past a degree conjunct 1.1.58 Moon.

In case you are interested in the money conjunctions Mars Jupiter:
Dec 11, 2006 16:11 GMT 3Sg51
Feb 17, 2009 16:27 GMT 10Aq06
May 1, 2011 04:26 GMT 22Ar21
July 22, 2013 07:35 Gmt 5Cn54

Hope I made no typos.

A hint to the mess above, also, what I did above, From Appendix 4 in Ramesey mundane book in PDF format on these web pages, Birchfield, editor writes:

In Abu Ma’shār’s text, we find important elements that are missing from Ramesey’s text. One very important element is that Abu Ma’shār is pointing the reader to another «beginning» chart. One chart Abu Ma’shār uses extensively is the chart of the annual Ingress of the Great Conjunctions when they changed from one triplicity to another. His reference to «ascendant of the religion» is a specific reference to the chart he uses throughout his book; i.e. the chart of the annual Revolution for the year the Great Conjunction shifted to the water triplicity indicating the rise of the Islamic Religion. The «terminal point of the year» is the profected ascendant of that chart! More important though, and for this reason one has to read his entire book and not take things out of context, is that Abu Ma’shār is only referring the reader to use the profected ascendant of some «beginning chart». In his case, he was specifically using the chart of the rise of the Islamic Dynasty in his discussions. A beginning chart of some Dynasty, however, is not always the chart of the shift of the Great Conjunction to another triplicity. A «beginning chart» was any chart of the annual Revolution (or Aries Ingress) of the particular year some new Dynasty began! In the context of the above discussion then, Abu Ma’shār says that in the Revolution of the Year of some particular nation or dynasty, if the profected ascendant degree (where 30º = 1 year) of the «beginning» chart of that nation was conjunct either Venus or Jupiter in the chart of the Yearly Revolution, by aspect or conjunct (by ray), then it was an indication the year would be fruitful and fertile!

A practical example of this is let us suppose you were examining the Yearly Revolution for Israel (2006). One would need to look to the «Beginning chart» for the nation of Israel. That chart, let us also suppose, is the yearly Ingress chart for 1948. The beginning chart has 14º Li 43’ as the cusp of the Ascendant. The terminal point (profected Ascendant) in 2006 would then be 14º Cn 43’. If Jupiter or Venus in the 2006 Ingress was conjunct that degree (or within their orbs or rays) or their aspect was to that degree, then we would say it indicates a fruitful, profitable and fertile year. If on the other hand it should fall within the rays of a malefic, then we would say the contrary! It just so happens that a malefic does aspect by degree, the degree of the terminal point in the 2006 annual Ingress; i.e. the Ingress Mercury (dispositor of Mars in the 8th) is 14º Pi 20’ in its detriment, fall, and Rx casting its aspect to the profected degree at 14 ºCn 41’. At the moment, I am writing this, (July 21, 2006), Israel is engaged in a war with Hezbollah in Lebanon which is taking a toll on both sides. In stead of fertility, war is making barren both nations!END

More on beginning charts are found in Intro by the Editor at beginning of book or PDF file on these web pages. Book IV – Astrologia Munda Introduction 1 Introduction by the Editor

1.) The planet is the predominant planet over the Ascendant of some Beginning chart. A «Beginning» chart was not just any annual Revolution! A «Beginning» could have been the Ingress in which the Great Conjunction changed triplicities. A «Beginning» could have been the time that some ruler acceded to the throne of some Dynasty. A «Beginning» could have been the chart of a lunation just prior to, or just following a specific ingress or when the Sun entered every sign. Another type of «Beginning» chart was the chart of any particular conjunction at the moment of the conjunction. Not all «Beginnings» occurred in the Aries ingress so it is quite possible for the Sun to be in any number of signs! END

Note on second bi wheel Astrowin I had to jiggle times a bit so they are not same as you find on astro.com or perhaps even on your computer. A - Win is usually a bit slower than most programs. Michael
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Lunlumo



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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Mundane Challenge: The Euro Crisis Reply with quote

daz madrigal wrote:

Not so much a collapse as a rebirth.

Early February 2012.

G


Possibly... but: This is based on what?

LL
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Planets are to turn direct through December; Uranus, Mercury on Tuesday night and then Jupiter towards the end of the month. The lunar eclipse on Saturday - there may be a sell-off, but I am looking for the market to find footing today, Friday, or on firstcoming Monday - with the outside chance of missing with a day or two in wait of Mercury to turn direct, who is the lord of the eclipse. Significant moodchanges in the market were on the previous full-moon and recent solar eclipse. Keydate is on 11-12th Dec. I might explain that the key date is generated from a comparison of previous highs and lows and length of these intervals. In previous work I was using the synodic period of the Moon as a standard to generate these keydates.

To cut it short, a solution may be close at hand. Lets hope so, for the festive season and the intermediate future that will get us breathing space and into the middle of January in the least!
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daz madrigal



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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Mundane Challenge: The Euro Crisis Reply with quote

Lunlumo wrote:
daz madrigal wrote:

Not so much a collapse as a rebirth.

Early February 2012.

G


Possibly... but: This is based on what?

LL


Its would be far better as a test to simply give the date predicted and then explain afterwards...saves time and is far easier to understand when its almost certain that the giver of the correct date knew what he/her was doing.

The final #Ura transit across the ASC/DC axis could well deal the last blow to this particular version of the Euro and that the time to look for is when #Ura is at 2#Ari, then quite simply we look for the trigger to ascertain a precise timing. On Feb 8-10, 2012 #Ven conj #Ura whilst #Mar R opposes #Jup.
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handn



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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't yet had time to properly digest the various forum postings and at this moment I only have time to flit in and out, but I wanted to quickly add that at the scheduled time of the summit beginning (which was 6:45pm CET --- http://europa.eu/eucalendar/event/id/274060-european-council/mode/standalone) the pre-eclipsed Moon (ruling Cancer rising) was applying to conjoin Algol. The Moon wasn't within orb -- whether applying or separating -- of any of the 'traditional' planets, but it was within orb of applying aspects to Uranus and Neptune. The next 'traditional' planet the Moon would aspect after changing signs was to a retrograde Mercury -- by then its dispositor -- in its detriment.

This time of 6:45pm CET is supplemented by a report that the area of Brussels in which the summit was to be held was declared off-limits except to authorised persons from 3pm on 8th December ( http://www.brussels.be/artdet.cfm/5284 ), and there were live updates on various newspaper websites of politicians arriving in the late afternoon/early evening.

According to news reports after arriving they had a meeting and then had dinner ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/8942090/Debt-crisis-as-it-happened-December-8-2011.html ).

There were, no doubt, secret pre-meetings by those who agree with one another in order to finalise their line for the 'real' meetings. Who knows what 'stars' these meetings were held under.
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daz madrigal



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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Mundane Challenge: The Euro Crisis Reply with quote

daz madrigal wrote:
Mark wrote:
Are you a prognosticator?

Are you tired of seeing astrologers describing events retrospectively rather than predicting them?

Do you feel you have the ability to predict a major event using your astrological knowledge? Have you seen an event in the news and thought..''I knew that was coming based on chart x?''

If so here is the first of what I will call our mundane challenges!

The Challenge question

''Will the Euro currency collapse and if so when?''




Not so much a collapse as a rebirth.



Early February 2012.


G



On 2nd thoughts the triggers aren't strong enough.

Amend to..



Feb 2012 - UR OPP ASC

Its Aries/Libra and on ASC/DC axis - clashes with partners/ threat of separation/instability- excitable market.

That should mark the first sign of real crisis.


MARCH 2012 - SA Rx opp SA Natal

This will depress the currency even further and result in selling as it slides down in value.

The final blow? 2 major planets aspected in the Euro chart (Uranus/Pluto) square Euro Sun during the 2013 summer...Sept seems the cruelest month.






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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Dec 9. I wrote wrote:
Planets are to turn direct through December; Uranus, Mercury on Tuesday night and then Jupiter towards the end of the month. The lunar eclipse on Saturday - there may be a sell-off, but I am looking for the market to find footing today, Friday, or on firstcoming Monday - with the outside chance of missing with a day or two in wait of Mercury to turn direct, who is the lord of the eclipse. Significant moodchanges in the market were on the previous full-moon and recent solar eclipse. Keydate is on 11-12th Dec. I might explain that the key date is generated from a comparison of previous highs and lows and length of these intervals. In previous work I was using the synodic period of the Moon as a standard to generate these keydates.

To cut it short, a solution may be close at hand. Lets hope so, for the festive season and the intermediate future that will get us breathing space and into the middle of January in the least!

I would like to point out that the market bottomed out and turned up on Wednesday Dec 14. on the day that Mercury turned direct, although the all important factor was probably release on the preceding Friday. The Norwegian markdet, in example, is up 10% from this date, a little excess of 3 weeks - but Xmas including. I would say that the markets have struggled, but seem to have got a good start to the New Year. More than most people expected. I look for this rally to continue for about another 10 days. the Norwegian market will be boosted or maintaned by higher oilprices.

I anyone is interested in how much money may be made on such a developement, using the derivat market a position may have been entered at the price of NOK 3,- on Dec 14. that may have been sold for the price of NOK 11,- yesterday (a little back today). But if the price objective is reached, NOK 27,- may be gained by Jan 14. That is a 800% profit. Wink
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skyrack



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Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

11.35 European Summer Time Wednesday 15th August 2012.

Skyrack
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