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Mundane Challenge: The Euro Crisis
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:25 pm    Post subject: Mundane Challenge: The Euro Crisis Reply with quote

Are you a prognosticator?

Are you tired of seeing astrologers describing events retrospectively rather than predicting them?

Do you feel you have the ability to predict a major event using your astrological knowledge? Have you seen an event in the news and thought..''I knew that was coming based on chart x?''

If so here is the first of what I will call our mundane challenges!

The Challenge question

''Will the Euro currency collapse and if so when?''

The Background

We are are all aware of the grave crisis facing the Euro currency. Its been an ongoing issue over the last few years and has kept intensifying. The Greek , Irish, Portugese bail outs have put the Euro under extreme financial pressure. The markets and credit rating agencies have now moved on to seriously question the sovereign debt liabilities of both the Italian and Spanish economies.

Some economists are predicting that the Euro will collapse under the weight of this sovereign debt which will prove too large to keep bailing out. Many German voters were unhappy with the scale of assistance needed to prop up the Greek economy. Will they and Angela Merkel really accept the far more dramatic sums required to keep Spain and Italy afloat in the long term?

This has led some economic forecasters to suggest that the poorer performing countries will need to leave the Euro altogether if it is to survive at all. There is also discussion of a Euro bond so that the debt of all the Euro economies is shared allowing the healthy German economy to pull up the Euro as a currency overall. Understandably, the German Chancellor and many German citizens are not keen on this idea.

Astrology charts

Lots of types of charts could be used to analyse this issue. National government, foundational ingress, quarterly ingress, eclipse, Jupiter-Saturn conj charts, pre-lunation etc. Its up to you.

To start us off here are two charts for the Euro.

Firstly, the chart for the launch of the Euro in 1999. Its located for Frankfurt , the financial HQ of the Euro rather than Brussels.



Secondly, the chart for 2002 marks the time the Euro became legal tender replacing national currencies in the Euro-zone.



Prediction required
Emphatic and clear to all. If you see the currency falling it would be good to see a prediction timed down to a month and even week. Shocked Equally, if you think it will survive please be clear.

Techniques

Feel welcome to use any and all techniques at your disposal from humble transits, to primary directions, solar returns, firdaria, progressions, solar arcs, profections etc.

Please dont feel the need to rush your response. A careful measured analysis is probably more useful.

Looking forward to your analysis! I know we have some talented financial astrologers out there. However, even if financial astrology is not your forte this issue seems a crucial one to answer astrologically.

Mark
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Epictetus


Last edited by Mark on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:50 pm; edited 3 times in total
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two comments

I think that maybe, for the future, we should focus challenges in more short term projects. Maybe the result of an election or trial?

Second that we have to define what does it mean collapse? If we don´t, we will sure have the sore losers defending how did get it right.

I will particularly define a collapse as any member leaving the euro zone. In 2002 it would be considered absurd even the possibility of this happening, so I think it is a pretty harsh event.

First I will try the "event" chart. I am usually against event charts, but this one is well established and very concrete in nature. I prefer the second, euro legal tender, first because I think it is more important, and second because it is so graphic!

But I am not sure how to pinpoint a month, I will have to take a good look at it.
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Yuzuru,


Quote:
I think that maybe, for the future, we should focus challenges in more short term projects. Maybe the result of an election or trial?


Good point. This is rather a titanic issue that could roll on for a while inconclusively. However, financial issues are what are dominating world headlines these days. And ultimately, if mundane astrology cannot predict such issues it is of limited practical value. As I said this is only the first of a series of such challenges. I will welcome other suggestions in future of people want to PM me.

Quote:
Second that we have to define what does it mean collapse? If we don´t, we will sure have the sore losers defending how did get it right.

I will particularly define a collapse as any member leaving the euro zone. In 2002 it would be considered absurd even the possibility of this happening, so I think it is a pretty harsh event.


True, Your quite right this needs toughening up a bit.

There are several possible outcomes:

1 No change to membership or structure of the organisation
2 Current membership but substantial change eg Euro bond.
3 Greece on its own or several other currencies leave the Euro
4 The Euro stops trading as a currency altogether.

I will rephrase the challenge question to:

Will the Euro currency continue to trade? If so will it do so with its existing membership or will some countries need to leave the Euro?
Quote:



First I will try the "event" chart. I am usually against event charts, but this one is well established and very concrete in nature. I prefer the second, euro legal tender, first because I think it is more important, and second because it is so graphic!


Is it a simple 'event' chart or an elected chart? I say the latter. I hadn't seen the second chart posted before and its does seem more 'graphic' in terms of current transits.

Quote:
But I am not sure how to pinpoint a month, I will have to take a good look at it.


Well we can but try. A quarter, month, or week or day. Obviously, the more precise a prediction in terms of timing the more impressive it will bw be.
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The euro is a difficult subject, because it's part of a process rather than an event. I usually don't look at these starting charts because of the rational choice of a certain case. In these cases 1st of January.

Instead I looked on the NASA eclipse site for some interesting eclipses with Europe involved.

2021: First one is not really with Europe involved but this eclipse starts at sunrise at New York. European and the whole world's economy being closely connected with US economy, a possible Euro collapse might be intoduced by a restless US market. Note that the eclipse path is right over the north pole.
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEplot/SEplot2001/SE2021Jun10A.GIF

2026: This one too has the eclipse path right over the north pole and ends at sunset in Europe. The path of totality passes Iceland and North Spain. Ending in the Mediterranean at Mallorca.
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEplot/SEplot2001/SE2026Aug12T.GIF

Then several decades no significant paths for Europe until

2081: This has a very interesting path, it namely almost coincides for a great part the European part of the 1999 eclipse path
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEplot/SEplot2051/SE2081Sep03T.GIF
compare with the 1999 path: http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEplot/SEplot1951/SE1999Aug11T.GIF

2082: Beginning in South-America, over countries once colonized by Portugal, Spain and France, the eclipse path ends at these last three countries on the European mainland. The path coincides roughly with the routes of Columbus. If there's a division between North and South Europe to come and with the idea that Brazilian economy is growing, cooperation between Portugal/Spain and Brazil/S-America could be increased.
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEplot/SEplot2051/SE2082Feb27A.GIF

These two dates lie close to that 2083 of Anders Breivik of the Norway massacre. Although he chose that year because that's 400 years after the siege of Vienna by the Turks, there might be something coinciding. Or perhaps some crazy people get inspired by Breivik's manifest.

2090: Path ends at sunset near London, Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam. Real North-West Europe centered area.
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEplot/SEplot2051/SE2090Sep23T.GIF

The problem with these last dates is that not many of us here will live long enough to verify.

So roughly I think that the 2020's and the 2080's are of significance for Europe although I can't tell for details.

2021 eclipse. planet positions, Mercury is within 1° conjunct the eclipse and Saturn in 13 Aquarius and Uranus in 12 Taurus reminds me of midnovember 1999 when Saturn was in 13 Taurus and Uranus in 13 Aquarius. So they trade places almost 22 years later.

2026 eclipse is 27 years and 1 day after the 1999 eclipse. planet positions, Uranus, Mercury, Venus make an interesting pattern in respectively 5 Gemini 5 Leo 5 Libra. If you use Pluto, then its position in 3 Aquarius form a so called 'kite' pattern with those three.

I couldn't make more of it without doing guesswork. I couldn't tell whether the Euro collapses but if there are some troubles to be with the Euro and EU than those years might be indicators for difficult periods. I hope society will make the best of it.
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:
Quote:
The euro is a difficult subject, because it's part of a process rather than an event. I usually don't look at these starting charts because of the rational choice of a certain case. In these cases 1st of January.


I thought I made it clear these charts were to get the thread going not the only charts to discuss the topic. If people want to quibble about these charts please put your own charts up. I think the vast majority of mundane astrologers would consider such charts as valid. They are far more accurately timed than the 57 varieties of the 1776 chart for the USA you see on astrology sites all the time.

I think your insights on future eclipses in Europe are very interesting. However, I didnt create this thread for such long term forecasting. Quite frankly we will all be dead on many of the dates you list! I would rather we focused our predictions on this thread on much shorter time periods. Plus this thread is about the Euro currency over the next few years not Europe in a generalized way over the next century.

I dont accept your point about this being a process and therefore not predictable. There are members on this site like Amelia that work with currency charts all the time and make regular predictions. It seems to me quite tangible to work out if an organization will need to split with some of its members leaving.

I will keep this thread running a while longer yet. However, if members dont post here I will assume I have asked to much of them astrologically. In that event I will revisit the topic subject to find something more straightforward and manageable for people.

Mark
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Eddy



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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No intentions to quibble here, my apologies if I made that impression. I just thought that most traditional astrologers use Aries ingress-charts, eclipses and Jupiter-Saturn cycles as mundane and long term prognosticators, rather than 'founding' and state etc, charts.

I must admit that the Euro charts have some value in analogy with human birth. The legal tender chart can be seen as a birth if the freezing of the exchange rates of the European currency is seen as conception and the previous negociations as the parents planning. Perhaps the 2021 and 2026 charts are still worth studying for the Euro, but then we have to be patient.

I don't know much about economy, but recently I read a book of the famous historian Maarten van Rossem about the crisis and the history of it. The origins lay in the extreme deregulation which started end '70s in the US and fully bloomed under Reagan in the '80s and in UK under Thatcher and spread over Europe. The left wingers of several countries in the '90s didn't change much with their 'third way' politics. Casino capitalism was made possible and nobody could be held responsible. At the moment some politicians start to realise that there has to be some form of regulation. I think a decision on this point will make an essential breaking point, at least in the EU. If this isn't done then the Euro will stand much weaker.
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:
Quote:
No intentions to quibble here, my apologies if I made that impression. I just thought that most traditional astrologers use Aries ingress-charts, eclipses and Jupiter-Saturn cycles as mundane and long term prognosticators, rather than 'founding' and state etc, charts.


I can only refer you back to my initial post:

Quote:
Lots of types of charts could be used to analyse this issue. National government, foundational ingress, quarterly ingress, eclipse, Jupiter-Saturn conj charts, pre-lunation etc. Its up to you.

To start us off here are two charts for the Euro.


I take issue with traditionalists here who suggest that national charts are not valid from a traditional perspective. I think this is a fundamental misconception. The view has recently been perpetuated that the notion of timing a state from its inceptional beginning is a product of Charles Carter and other modern astrologers.

Its true medieval astrologers didn't often use accurately timed charts for the beginning of a dynasty. They used the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction or a foundational ingress chart. In the case of great religions often the two combined ie the ingress prior to a Jupiter-Saturn conjunction. However, on the rare occasions when they had accurately timed inceptional charts they used them. Indeed they used them in preference to foundational ingress charts. For example the elected chart for the founding of Baghdad. I take the view that accurately timed national charts are inceptional charts in that tradition. The times may not be astrologically elected but they were consciously chosen to begin a new government or constitutional settlement. These are not random event charts as some traditionalists have suggested.

The problem arises when a national chart is proposed where the timing is speculative or based on rectification. The obvious example are the various charts for the USA based on 4th of July 1776. In my opinion such a chart is not a valid basis for a reliable root chart. Not excluding the objection to whether the state of the modern USA can be dated from then. Over on the English riots thread I showed how useful a national chart like the 1066 chart can be. Ultimately, though it is not a timed chart. I would therefore not rely on it to the same extent as a timed base chart such as the 1927 chart.

The other objection often heard is that countries often have several key dates that could be used for its inception as a state. However, this is a challenge to any kind of astrology not just use of national charts. What is ignored in this argument is that many traditional methods such as the foundational ingress chart may face precisely the same dilemma.

I personally, dont see why a currency cannot have an inceptional time in the same way as a city or state.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:44 am; edited 4 times in total
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granny_skot



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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a note but Venus Rules both charts (and she represents money quite accurately!) and is in Capricorn in Both charts, Currently she's in Virgo, working on a trine to herself in the second chart, then on to trine herself in the first, not exactly what I'd call a bad omen of any sort.

also Saturn rules Capricorn and is currently exalted in Libra, suggesting authority curtailing Venus path at the moment, but even so, not suggesting failure to me in any way. More taking time to regulate and manage, which is only proper. In fact I suspect it will right itself over time.

My two cents, however boring, Granny.
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am getting the distinct feeling this topic is not striking a chord with many members. Maybe aiming at the astrological Mount Olympus was a bit too ambitious. Smile This idea was an experiment so I guess I have to accept that some new ideas dont work out as planned.

I will keep this thread open for anyone that does want to post on the Euro. However, I will also consider any alternative questions suggested here too. If we get anything that sounds popular I suggest starting off a new thread on it.

Mark
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Lunlumo



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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Germany has had four fundamental changes of its currencies:
Nov. 15, 1923: a new currency following the inflation
June 1948: "Deutschmark"
July 1990 in the still existing GDR: introduction of the West German currency.
And finally Jan. 1999/2002: the Euro

One can observe that most of these changes are linked with MER/UR combinations.

Another chart that might be taken into account: the European Bank in Frankfurt:
June 1st, 1998, 0:00 MESZ (GMT -2)



Above the Great Conj. of 1980, Frankfurt, in addition its 5th Septar (31.12./2008 - 31.12.2015)

A closer study will reveal that the years 2012 and 2013 will be the decisive years.

Main chart: AC 15 degrees VIR: when SAT was there in 2008 the financial crisis started. Presently it's antisc. AC: bad times for shares - and for the European Bank there.

MER/UR can be found in both charts:

a) Main chart: UR in house three - corresponding to MER. affairs. Most important MER antisc. MAR (first degree of Aqu.!), MAR ruling house three.
Discharge of this constellation in 2012 in the course of the Seven-Years' Rhythm, anti-clockwise, when MAR will be reached directly.

b) Septar: MER/UR will be discharged in spring 2012.

Simultaneously PL tr. will be conj SUN/MER. And NE will be at 2 Pisces: a degree corresponding to SAT/NE - the collapse, breakdown.

So the worst is still to come.

("Come what come may, time and the hour runs through the roughest day..." - But I do not think that Mr Shakespeare will be able to bring about a change here...)

LL
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Lunlumo,

Quote:
So the worst is still to come.


So what is your prediction for the Euro?

Quote:
A closer study will reveal that the years 2012 and 2013 will be the decisive years.


Ok you have pinned this down to two years. Can we be more precise than that? As it stands what you are stating could be concluded by many of the general population without any knowledge of astrology.

Do you think The Euro may need to reformuate in 2012? I imagine the ingress charts will give more specific detail.

Quote:
Germany has had four fundamental changes of its currencies:
Nov. 15, 1923: a new currency following the inflation
June 1948: "Deutschmark" July 1990 in the still existing GDR: introduction of the West German currency. And finally Jan. 1999/2002: the Euro


Quote:
Another chart that might be taken into account: the European Bank in Frankfurt: June 1st, 1998, 0:00 MESZ (GMT -2)


Thanks for that chart. I think your focus in the 1980 Jupiter-Saturn conjunction is most interesting too and as you suggest a kind of meta chart for current events as this was the first conjunction in air triplicity for about 800 years. I would look at the 2000 conjunction too though.

I have been taking a look at various other currency charts and charts for Banking Institutions too. The Pluto connection to the Euro (2002) chart seems to mirror the same thing in numerous national charts. This has been looming for years and many have discussed this before here.

Mark
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Lunlumo



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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Can we be more precise than that?


Hi Mark,
I feel sure that spring 2012 will be a time when we'll know a lot more.
This will also be most probably the next real world wide crisis of economy in general and finance in particular.
I do not think that the Euro will survive in its present form.
I mean what will not survive is the monetary union. It will probably break into two halves - "upper zone- lower zone" or s.th. like that. The people here in Germany have not forgotten that (in a most undemocratic procedure) they were forced to throw away one of the best currencies of the world as though it was a load of trash. People are no longer willing "to save the Greeks".

Have a look at the Vernal Ingress 2012: MER/UR in a most prominent position.

See the chart of the EU below together with its present Septar.
Septar: UR/PL square MER/Moon/VE. Discharge of that in spring 2012 (UR/PL conj IC will be met directly - seven months from cusp to cusp, clockwise).



LL
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Lunlumo



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Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.. one more step:



Great Conjunction 1603 plus Septar 59: 12/2009-12/2016
Brussels
See the transits to the Septar in/around spring 2012:
MA squ. MER/NE
and PL tr. conj. MER/NE

The Septar clearly indicates that monetary problems have already become paramount with politics: PL at 22 degrees GEM (a Uranian degree) and MA at 28 CAN (MA/PL quality). Both planets clearly exposed, with MA/PL ruling the MC.
PL tr. will be at 9/10 CAP in spring (and later again that year). This is noteworthy because this is the degree of the AC of the chart for Germany (24.5.1949, 0:00 Local Time, Berlin). I think the Euro will put an enormous stress on Germany then, and there will be a growing resistence in the public. And as everybody knows the Euro stands or falls with the willingness of German authorities to keep it alive.

For Brussels: NE=AC/MER. Inflation? Not necessarily, but this is not a sound basis for a currency.
(By the way - when referred to London you get AC conj. NE (exactly) - as has been proved lately.)

LL
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john



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Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t have that much time these days to contribute to the Skysript forum and have rarely drifted on to the Mundane section.

However, I thought the question posed about the collapse of the Euro was worth considering, rather than reading the retrospective views of recent events. If I may be indulged for a while these are my initial thoughts.

I have taken the view that astrology should be considered in the context of what is known.
To this extent the fate of the Euro seems tied in with the German and French nations.

A first look at the Euro 2002 Chart and the Greece 1974 Democracy Chart shows a strong connection between the two. Whilst there is clearly tension between the Charts there is also a compatibility which leads me to question, despite the problems in Greece, if there is an appetite in the country for it to revert back to drachma. Does Greece see greater strength remaining in the Euro zone, despite the calls for an independent drachma to allow devaluation and greater competitiveness? Perhaps the Euro question for Greece is a symptom of more deep seated problems?

Coming back to France and Germany, there are French presidential elections next year and German Federal elections in 2013. How likely is it that the players in the elections of these countries will want such a Euro crisis issue prior to the vote? What the population of these countries decide and how the political parties treat the Euro crisis is still to be crystallised. I feel that the astrology of the Euro should be considered in this context.

There is commentary on the internet about the political pressures these countries are likely to face. With respect to France, Sarkozy was elected from votes of the French NF. This right wing vote appears to be moving away from the French president due to his current unpopularity and suggests a move to the ‘left’. There are now talks that Strauss-Kahn may well play a part in the outcome of the French Socialist primaries. The other question being posed is the French NF will have a greater percentage of the vote the Sarkozy’s UMP.

With regard to Germany the opposite political pressures are being discussed. The Green Party has grown in popularity and the socialist SPD may play the role of ‘kingmaker’ in any coalition, rather than in its historic position of being the largest ‘left’ party.

Coming back to the original question of the future of the Euro, perhaps this needs to be considered in the political landscape of the French and German nations.
Perhaps the question should be ‘Will the Euro currency collapse before the French elections, between the French and German elections or after the German elections?

These issues are not easily answered astrologically in a few days and perhaps I’m raising the wrong questions. The issue has been raised about a two-tier Euro and the next two years, which is something that has been raised in the media for sometime and seems a serious consideration by economic commentators. If this is going to occur it may be more credible to place the timing in context of the French and German elections and the implications for change in the political landscape of these countries for the non-astrological world to sit up and possibly take notice.
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Lunlumo



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Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,
you will have noticed that I referred to the situation here in Germany.
You've mentioned the parties: well, they all stress the vital importance of keeping alive the Euro - including the Green Party.
However, the majority of the people (who have never taken a fancy to the Euro) are no longer willing to follow them there. People have been told again and again that it's Germany that has profited from the Euro over the years. More and more people (rightly so) are beginning to doubt this. The reasons why economy here is in a relatively good condition are simple: it is run with a) a lot more intelligence and efficiency and b) more sense of responsibility than in (e.g.) southern European countries.

See the chart below, Germany, FR. In May 2012 MA will be met in the clockwise direction (seven-years' rhythm). It rules both house 10 plus three. MA IC analog. Moon: aggression rising. (MA square PL!). At the same time PL tr. will be (repeatedly) conj. AC.
I still believe that the Euro will no longer be the currency that it is now.
Well, maybe the Government, desperately trying to save the Euro, will remain stubborn - for some more months or even a year to follow. However Mrs Merkel and her ministers will be trembling with a view at the forthcoming elections in autumn 2013.



Next to the basic chart the sec.progr. for May 2012. A New Moon conj MER, definitely bad and MA/UR in house three: quarrel with neighbours (among them European neighbours) concerning currencies.

LL
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