16
Pankajdubey wrote:
It is mainly England not so much the Union as Scotland , Wales and NI have largely been untouched.
Good point. Nothing has happened in Scotland , Wales or Northern Ireland. This is very much an English story.

Pankajdubey wrote:
There must be a sensitive point in the chart of England which has recently been triggerd
.

Time to check out the good old 1066 chart. :)

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

17
I'm not sure that an astrologer would see particularly great danger in the pre-lunation chart by itself. Cap asc with its saturn ruler square has an ominous air riding high in the chart but there is nothing unusual about that and it wouldnt cause alarm by itself. I agree about Mars on 6th cusp but again its only with hindsight that we'd make the conclusion of a sudden uprising of servants/underclasses etc. I think we need something extra, I'm not sure what..fixed stars? previous volatile aspects carried on from the past? Certainly Mars has been unusually prolific in its mayhem this year, could that be a vestige of the much talked about conjunction with Pluto in Cap alongside 4 other planets?


Hello Greg,

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough what my point was. I was trying to take the focus away from event charts to other foundational charts from which the event could be seen to stem. I certainly wasn't suggesting a pre-lunation chart on its own is sufficient enough to get to the bottom of a major event like this. Its just one tool in the box. In terms of the hierarchy of charts a mundane astrologer would consider a prelunation chart as near the bottom of the pile. Let me give you detail on the kind thing I mean.

Starting from long term to event charts here are charts we might consider:

1 Foundational Ingress chart or a national chart
2 Saturn ?Jupiter Conjunction in a new element
3 Outer planet aspect cycles: E.g. Pluto-Uranus square.
4 Jupiter-Saturn Conjunction and other planetary conjunction charts
5 Planets ingressing new signs
6 Solar and Lunar eclipses
7 Aries Ingress charts
8 Pre-Lunation charts
9 Event chart.

In this scheme the event chart is not the fundamental basis to help explain an event but rather just the final trigger actualizing tendencies in other predictive cycles. I see much of modern mundane astrology as like an inverted pyramid. It is frequently based on an event chart and only uses other charts for supplementary support. However, this is putting the chart at the bottom of the astrological hierarchy as the key generator of an event. In a more traditional approach the outlook is completely the opposite. The foundations of the pyramid (longer term generators) set the tone over centuries, decades, years and months, and weeks. An event chart is just actualizing tendencies already indicated in meta-charts it triggers.

So lets get down to practical charts.

First lets start with the national chart for England , the 1066 chart. This chart is timed for the coronation of William the Conqueror on Christmas day at noon.
Image
Clearly like the rest of the world England is deeply feeling the stress of the Pluto-Uranus square. Financial markets are reeling and currencies under unprecedented pressure. The international sovereign debt crisis shows no sign of easing. Despite the British Chancellors claims that the UK is a 'safe haven' the reality is that the pressure on European governments is something Britain is deeply implicated in with the role of its Banking sector in loans to European Banks.

Uranus is currently squaring the Sun/MC of the 1066 chart while Pluto is close to conjunction with the Sun/MC. The ingress of Mars into Cancer added a new malefic dynamic creating a T square with Pluto and Uranus and conjoining the IC of the 1066 chart. This mirrors the Aries ingress chart.

The ingress chart for Mars in Cancer located for London is very interesting grand cross configuration with Mars itself on the MC, Pluto on the IC, The Moon on the ASC and Uranus on the DESC. Adding to the connections with the 1066 chart the Moon is exactly opposite the 1066 Moon here:
Image
Looking at all the ingress charts for 2011 Mars is very prominent in each quarter. Scorpio rising in all four quarters of the year! Plus Mars is very prominent in each chart. I know that sounds really trite in hindsight but it is self evident to anyone looking at the the ingresses located for London England. Mars is definitely the planet to watch in the UK in 2011. I am not just discussing the riots. Mars alone gives us the flavour of what to expect with Mars associations of sudden violence, conflict, discord and frustration.

Aries ingress (2011)
Image
Traditionally, the Aries ingress has relevance for 3 months if the sign rising is cardinal, 6 months if mutable and the entire year if its fixed. So with Scorpio rising that gives ingress for 2011 particular relevance. There is only one angular planet in this chart which is Mars (Lord 1) on IC. The 1st house ruler in mundane charts can represent the will of the people. Here we see the people opposing those in power (MC). This can be said to be a theme for the entire year. The Moon (also symbolizing the people) is conjunct Saturn indicating the general economic climate of recession.

Although, I think the Aries ingress is the prime chart here setting the overall tone I have noticed from studying ingress charts that even when the Aries ingress chart has a fixed rising sign the other quarters can offer refinements of the bigger picture.

Cancer ingress (2011)
Image
Scorpio rises in this ingress on almost exactly the same point as the Aries Ingress. In the Cancer ingress Mars is again the most angular of the planets by quadrant houses, although located in the 8th house by whole sign. By quadrant houses we have the symbolism here of Mars ( Lord 1) opposing the ascendant. ?A house divided against itself cannot stand? as Abraham Lincoln once said. The Moon is conjunct the IC while the Sun is in the 8th house and ruling the 9th by quadrant houses. By whole sign houses its in the 9th ruling the 10th. The apparent weakness of the current government in the face of domestic and international crisis seems reflected here. Comparing this ingress with the 1066 chart the Cancer ingress Mars is square Pluto and Jupiter (1066).

Libra ingress (2011)
Image
Yet again another Scorpio rising chart. No prizes for spotting the Mars-Moon conjunction in the 9th house. By WS this conjunction is in the 10th house. Either way this conjunction opposes the Mars in the 1066 chart. There is a definite focus on international developments in all these ingress charts. Here Jupiter Rx (Lord 2) is angular in the 7th

Capricorn ingress (2011)
Image
A fascinating chart I think you will agree. Scorpio rises again in this final quarter as in all the others. Mars on the MC. The Moon is also Mars ruled in Scorpio and closely conjunct the ASC. Jupiter Rx applying back to oppose Saturn.

The Capricorn ingress Mars is conjunct the 1066 Saturn. Uranus conjunct the 1066 Moon. Pluto is now direct and ever closer to the 1066 MC.

As I pointed earlier the Mars in the Pre-lunation chart before the English riots is conjunct the Aries Ingress SN. However, there is an even stronger connection to the eclipse chart of January 4th 2011. This solar eclipse was visible throughout most of the Uk. Here is the chart based on moment of greatest eclipse (not zodiacal conjunction).
Image
This seems to be a major explanation of why this pre-lunation and not any other. The angles of the charts are almost identical and the ascendant of the pre-lunation is conjunct the eclipse point. Mars in the pre-lunation is also square Uranus (Solar eclipse)
.
Last edited by Mark on Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

18
Eddy wrote:
I had a look at the eclipse charts for 4 january 2011 (solar) and 15 june 2011 (lunar) because these had the eclipse on the horizon in England (and in Norway as discussed in the Oslo thread).
I meant to pick up this comment of yours earlier. Its worth pointing out there are two possible versions of both the solar eclipse or lunar eclipse charts. One can display the chart when the luminaries are exactly conjunct or opposing along the ecliptic. This might be called a zodiacal eclipse.

However, the more traditional idea of an eclipse is timed from the point of
maximum eclipse for a solar eclipse or mid-eclipse for a lunar eclipse. In other words relating to the visual eclipse not its symbolic representation in zodiacal degrees. I think for an eclipse visible in a location such as the January 4th solar eclipse in Great Britain we should be using the time for maximum eclipse as the key chart.

I am more torn on the Lunar eclipse of June 15th 2011. Strictly speaking the Moon was not visible at the time of the eclipse as it was daylight in the UK. Here are both charts for the lunar eclipse. The first based on the time for mid eclipse and the second based on the more symbolic zodiacal opposition.

Lunar Eclipse of June 15th (time of mid eclipse)
Image
Lunar Eclipse of June 15th (zodiacal opposition)
Image
In the mid eclipse chart Saturn (Lord 2) is right on the MC. I suspect that is picking up financial woes that lie ahead for the UK. In both charts a debiltated Mars in Taurus is on the malefic fixed star Algol by ecliptical projection. Its in its joy in the 6th house in the mid eclipse chart by quadrant and whole sign houses. Its also in the 6th in the zodiacal opposition chart by Whole sign. This fits the symbolism of the rioters as coming from the underclass of society. However, by sign division (Placidus) Mars is in the 5th house in the zodiacal opposition chart. This fits too with the destructive 'fun' of the rioters expressed. In the mid eclipse chart Mars rules the 12th house (self undoing, hidden enemies) and the IC. A debilitated Mars ruling the IC. This seems a good fit for hidden anger and resentment against authority. However, as we have seen in the other charts displayed that Mars was provided with an anti-social outlet through the ingress and national chart picture.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

19
Mark wrote:However, the more traditional idea of an eclipse is timed from the point of
maximum eclipse for a solar eclipse or mid-eclipse for a lunar eclipse. In other words relating to the visual eclipse not its symbolic representation in zodiacal degrees. I think for an eclipse visible in a location such as the January 4th solar eclipse in Great Britain we should be using the time for maximum eclipse as the key chart.
Sorry I'm a bit deviant with that eclipse point. However I believe Margherita once mentioned a classical astrologer who also used the zodiacal conjunction of the eclipse. I don't remember who it was.

20
The Capricorn ingress Mars is conjunct the 1066 Saturn. Uranus conjunct the 1066 Moon. Pluto is now direct and ever closer to the 1066 MC.
In the 1066 chart we have progressed MC/Sun opposite 1066 Mars. The progressed MC is close to exaction however one has to bear in mind that the 12 Noon timing is presumptive. However an MC/MA opposition is the type of aspect that would accurately describe not just the martial energy of but also the widespread fires and subsequent redtop headlines such as "Londons Burning!". Also the MC resides in 5th house..in this case the 'rioters' seem better described as 'excited mischiefmakers' rather than the politically incentivised 'angry radicals' we are more commonly used to. Add the trigger of the Jupiter transit in taurus and we have MA-JU-MC/SU t-square. Potentially incendiary & redolent of the conflagration that transpired.

Also noteworthy is the exact PL/Chiron conj in 1066 12H with its wounded, abused underclass sensitivities, both provide a good argument to consider the 1066 chart as an accurate predictor of events.

............last but not least - the sabian symbol. :D


CH pr/PL at 4 VI -
BLACK AND WHITE CHILDREN PLAY TOGETHER HAPPILY.

KEYNOTE: The overcoming of socio-cultural prejudices.

Freedom from all the forms, biases and idiosyncrasies of the particular culture and class in which one has been born and educated is a sine qua non of the consciousness truly "on the Path." The ideal of universal brotherhood underlies all great spiritual teachings, for they all are like branches of the One Tree, Man, in his divine state. This does not mean there are no racial differences, but rather that these differences have a functional value in terms of the whole organism of Man ? and of the planet Earth.

At this fourth stage the basic technique which applies to all truly spiritual progress is clearly stated. Every human being should be seen, approached and warmly met as a "child of God," or in less religious terms as an exemplar of Man. Such a status gives to every social and interpersonal group the character of a BROTHERHOOD.

Simple perhaps but quietly effective!


Greg
Last edited by daz madrigal on Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:35 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Mad Daz's Place, quiet but never boring
http://pinkmelon.proboards82.com/index.cgi

21
Eddy wrote: However I believe Margherita once mentioned a classical astrologer who also used the zodiacal conjunction of the eclipse. I don't remember who it was.
Lilly seems to use the conjunction.
Image
In every case for what it is worth I don't use the syzygy of Lights, but the moment of maximum obscuration, because where is the effectiveness of the eclipse? It is in alteration of the light, so that's the apex.

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

22
Eddy wrote:
Sorry I'm a bit deviant with that eclipse point. However I believe Margherita once mentioned a classical astrologer who also used the zodiacal conjunction of the eclipse. I don't remember who it was.
I dont think your position is 'deviant'. If anything its the mainstream approach in modern mundane astrology. But if we think about why eclipses are astrologically significant in the first place the time of maximum obscuration of the Sun in a particular location seems the most significant time to look at.

I only became aware of this point myself through Margherita pointing out how traditional authoritities like Ptolemy or Cardano approached eclipses some time ago on the forum.

I am also indebted to Margherita for pointing out how to get the information for eclipses by maximum obscuration from the NASA website:

http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/JSEX/JSEX-index.html (Solar eclipses)

http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/JLEX/JLEX-index.html (Lunar eclipses)

1 Select Continent

2 Select city

3 Select century

4 Check time of maximum obscurity for eclipse

From what I have seen to date the eclipse chart based of maximum obscuration is more accurate. However, what about solar eclipses not visible in your location? The traditional purist would probably not consider such eclipses at all or best give them limited importance. Its probably the tendency to consider such eclipses in modern astrology that has shifted the focus away from the time of maximum obsuration to zodiacal conjunction.

Margherita wrote:
Lilly seems to use the conjunction.
Ah Lilly that notorious corrupter of traditional astrology! :lol: I doubt the information on maximum obscuration was that readily available in his day. I understand from Margherita Cardano in his commentary on Ptolemy seems to support the method of maximum obscurity of the Sun in regards eclipse charts. I wonder if he had the exact astronomical data to do this in practical astrology though?
In every case for what it is worth I don't use the syzygy of Lights, but the moment of maximum obscuration, because where is the effectiveness of the eclipse? It is in alteration of the light, so that's the apex.
Yes the logic is impeccable. I agree. What is your take on lunar eclipses in daytime charts?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

23
Daz Madrigal wrote:
The progressed MC is close to exaction however one has to bear in mind that the 12 Noon timing is presumptive.
True. Noon seems to be the traditional time of coronations. However, it might be safer to work with local solar noon based on local solar time rather than the modern clock notion based on Local mean Time.

Lunlumo raised this point on the forum recently: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6238

For human timings in charts before mechanical time devices were used I agree with him that Local Apparent time or Local Solar Time, should be used in preference to Local Mean Team.

I would be cautious in relying on the angles in the 1066 chart too much closely. In any case here is the 1066 chart at solar noon with the Sun exactly on the MC.
Image
Fortunately, with this approach we can still pick up the Uranus square and Pluto applying to eventually conjunct the Sun.

The coronation of William I ('the Conqueror') was by all accounts quite a grim and violent affair.

http://www.mytimemachine.co.uk/williami.htm

http://www.londononline.co.uk/monarchy/ ... Conqueror/

Useful clues for anyone looking to work on an elected chart for a different time of day. For example, the Moon -Uranus square in the morning or Mars on the MC later in the afternoon.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

24
Mark wrote:What is your take on lunar eclipses in daytime charts?

Mark
You know quite well which is Ptolemy rule, the eclipse should be visible.

Anyway I believe the one of June, 15th is ok if I understand well NASA site, because by its end (21:03) it's visible.

And being the Moon on the Ascendant, effects are immediate.

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

25
Margherita wrote:
You know quite well which is Ptolemy rule, the eclipse should be visible.
I do but I was asking your opinion based on praxis not asking what Ptolemy said. Do you simply follow Ptolemy and discount Lunar eclipses in daylight?
Anyway I believe the one of June, 15th is ok if I understand well NASA site, because by its end (21:03) it's visible.
Unfortunately, the NASA site doesn't tell us when the eclipse became visible. It was probably a bit before the eclipse ended. However, because it was visible towards its end I accept that it was astrologically operative.
And being the Moon on the Ascendant, effects are immediate.
It seems so!
Last edited by Mark on Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

Lunar Eclipse of June 15th (zodiacal opposition)

26
Lunar Eclipse of June 15th (zodiacal opposition)

I am missing in all Discussion the meanings of the Horoscopes like this. That what I call Praxis! (Practical work!)
So there is an example:
When someone does forecast like this, he will see a lot!




Moon in house 1
in opposition to the Sun, are restlessness, dissatisfaction among the working classes


Mars in 5
Danger to places of entertainment, shopping areas, roads, etc., by explosion of fire, accidents in companies, public morale is suffering, and crimes against women and children!

Venus in 5
disgusting atrocities, problems in areas where local entertainment, (transactions) are

Neptune in 2
Neptune here means confusion, both in economic terms and in defined areas.

Uranus in 3
Explosions, malicious attacks (on transportation) Press and education is adversely affected.

etc.
Combine the whole thing about the houses connected to each other and you willhave good statements!

Wolfgang

27
Lunar Eclipse of June 15th (zodiacal opposition)

I am missing in all Discussion the meanings of the Horoscopes like this. That what I call Praxis! (Practical work!)


I had thought I had made a good go of offering that on all 4 ingress charts, the pre-lunation, Mars ingress , solar eclipse and 1066 chart! :shock: My approach has been more to show an interconection between charts so we can detect a pattern emerging beforehand. Detecting replicatable predictive patterns is what real mundane astrology should be about IMO.
So there is an example:
When someone does forecast like this, he will see a lot!
Unfortunately, none of us are forecasting here. We are all doing retrospective catch up. If this was as easy as some make out we would have predicted this beforehand. We didn't. I do think this kind of incident can be very instructive if we take the time to study them deeply. However, I dont buy the argument that a quick scan of one chart and all the pieces fall into place.
Moon in house 1
in opposition to the Sun, are restlessness, dissatisfaction among the working classes
I think this is the most important point to delineate from the eclipse. The Moon is traditionally unfortunate on the ascendant. Here we see an magnification of emotional intensity by the public. The Moon symbolizes the irrational, instinctive impulses in the population at large. The psychology of mob violence is very interesting. People can be caught up in such activity and later find it difficult to rationally explain their actions. Also as Margherita stated an eclipse on the ASC traditionally has an effect soon afterwards.
Mars in 5
Danger to places of entertainment, shopping areas, roads, etc., by explosion of fire, accidents in companies, public morale is suffering, and crimes against women and children!


That is self evident now but would we have delineated it this way based on just this lunar eclipse? Linking this to burning property I note Mars rules the IC. I am not sure women and children were especially victims here. The whole population were victims. Some women and young children were involved in the rioting though. :shock:
Venus in 5
disgusting atrocities, problems in areas where local entertainment, (transactions) are
Venus is in the 6th by any house system I think. Where are you getting 'disgusting atrocities' from astrologically?
Neptune in 2
Neptune here means confusion, both in economic terms and in defined areas.

Uranus in 3
Explosions, malicious attacks (on transportation) Press and education is adversely affected.
I guess we approach delineation very differently. I dont have a lot of time for delineation of charts just using the house placement of outer planets in this way. For example Neptune in just about any house could be used to fit these events retrospectively. Neptune in the 1st, 4th, 5th, 7th, 6th, 10th, or 12th could all be made to fit these events in retrospect. Unless they are tied into close aspects with planets or angles I dont think they should be given much attention myself.

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly